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Original Sin/the Sin Nature

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#1 Jordan Kurecki

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 08:53 PM

Why do we teach this doctrine called "Original Sin" or "The Sin Nature"?

 

Can God really punish me for doing what is my nature to do?

Isn't that like punishing a dog for barking?

 

Seems kind of contradictory to the Character of God to punish people who do what their nature is inclined to do?

How can you punish a sinner for being a sinner if it's his nature?

 

Now if we have a free will without a sin nature and we just CHOOSE to sin by FREE WILL, then that makes more sense to me.

 

Can there really be a such a thing as free will if we have a sin nature?

 

Please give me your scriptures to show that we have a sin nature.

 

What about verses like these?

 

Eze 18:19  Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 
Eze 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be 
 
Deu 24:16  The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. 
 
let's hear them responses.
 
Let me just say I am not convinced that Original Sin/The Sin Nature is false doctrine, But I more than likely will argue against the doctrine for the sake of good dialogue, I will play devils advocate.

 

 



#2 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:22 PM

Since it is not a sin for a dog to bark, your comparison makes no sense.

We all are born with a proclivity and a propensity to sin... hence, the sin nature.



#3 MatthewDiscipleOfGod

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:27 PM

 

Isn't that like punishing a dog for barking?

 

 

Dog's get punished for barking all the time. I would get upset if my neighbors didn't control their dog's barking when I am asleep. :)



#4 Jordan Kurecki

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:33 PM

Dog's get punished for barking all the time. I would get upset if my neighbors didn't control their dog's barking when I am asleep. :)

let me rephrase this, you created a dog and allowed it to have a barking nature, it barks, and then you punish it.



#5 Winman

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:35 PM

Since it is not a sin for a dog to bark, your comparison makes no sense.

We all are born with a proclivity and a propensity to sin... hence, the sin nature.

 

The fact that we all sin does not prove we are born with a sin nature. Adam and Eve were created "very good", yet they sinned the first time they were tempted. 

 

Satan was perfect in his ways when he was created (as well as the fallen angels), yet they chose to sin. 

 

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

People ASSUME because all men choose to sin that this proves we are born with a sin nature, but scripture PROVES this view false. The fact that we sin DOES NOT prove we are born with a sin nature, only that we have free will. 

 

In fact, scripture says God made man UPRIGHT. 

 

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

Ecc 7:29 refutes Original Sin as it says God made men upright. The word "they" points back to the word "man" and shows this verse is speaking of all men, not Adam alone. The word "many" shows that men fall because of personal sin and not the single sin Adam committed in the garden. 

 

There is MUCH more, but this will do for a start. 



#6 Winman

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:42 PM

let me rephrase this, you created a dog and allowed it to have a barking nature, it barks, and then you punish it.

 

The fact is, scripture teaches that Jesus had the same nature as us. 

 

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
 
Most people believe the sin nature resides in the flesh. If so, then Jesus would have had a sin nature, because he took part of "the same" flesh and blood as us. 
 
Jesus also took upon himself the "nature" of "the seed of Abraham". So, if Abraham and his seed were born with a sinful nature, then so was Jesus. 
 
Jesus was made like his brethren the Jews in "all things". If the Jews were born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus. 
 
Jesus did not have a sin nature, and neither did we at first. We were made upright, but all of us became sinful when we chose to sin. 


#7 Winman

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:54 PM

Dog's get punished for barking all the time. I would get upset if my neighbors didn't control their dog's barking when I am asleep. :)

 

No one considers it a sin when a dog barks. if a dog did not bark, you would think something is wrong with that dog, not right. 

 

Likewise, when we sin, it is considered wrong. You feel guilty for it. We all expect each other to do right. 

 

Sin is not natural for us, it is unnatural. 


Edited by Winman, 26 July 2014 - 09:59 PM.


#8 Alimantado

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:20 AM

Why do we teach this doctrine called "Original Sin" or "The Sin Nature"?

 

Can God really punish me for doing what is my nature to do?

Isn't that like punishing a dog for barking?

 

Seems kind of contradictory to the Character of God to punish people who do what their nature is inclined to do?

How can you punish a sinner for being a sinner if it's his nature?

 

Now if we have a free will without a sin nature and we just CHOOSE to sin by FREE WILL, then that makes more sense to me.

 

Can there really be a such a thing as free will if we have a sin nature?

 

I think I'd have some prior questions about what 'sin nature' is, what 'temptation' is, and even what 'free will' is.

 

For example, you've said that if we have a free will without a sin nature then we can just choose to sin by free will, as if 'free will' itself becomes the determinant of our choices. I've heard this many times and never really understood it because to me free will simply describes having the ability to make a choice unfettered by certain grevious influences, such as a gun to the head. To go on and say that 'free will' is what determined the actual choice made is like a person saying "I chose to do X because I could choose to do X". But that is not an answer to the question of why they chose X instead of Y. They had the free will to choose Y instead, so why didn't they?

 

If there is 'free will' in place, I can only think of two reasons why someone would choose a certain way--1) because of the 'sum' of their own desires, 2) 'randomity', i.e. they flipped a coin or did something whereby the choice was actually decided by chance.

 

Moving on to culpability, if those are the only two options, then we either have to hold the person responsible for their desires/inclinations, or hold them responsible for the way the coin landed, or not hold them responsible for their decision.

 

Far from it being unjust to judge people on their inclinations, It seems to me that is exactly what we do and God does also. Where does our heart lie (Matt 6:21)? What do we esteem one over another (Heb 11:26)? We can have conficting desires, of course (I want this but having it means hurting someone I love), but what we end up loving the most--the sum of our desires--is what we are judged for.

 

Of course, that begs the question why one person loves God more than anything else and another doesn't--why are their desires different? I'm not sure!



#9 Winman

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 08:08 AM

I think I'd have some prior questions about what 'sin nature' is, what 'temptation' is, and even what 'free will' is.

 

For example, you've said that if we have a free will without a sin nature then we can just choose to sin by free will, as if 'free will' itself becomes the determinant of our choices. I've heard this many times and never really understood it because to me free will simply describes having the ability to make a choice unfettered by certain grevious influences, such as a gun to the head. To go on and say that 'free will' is what determined the actual choice made is like a person saying "I chose to do X because I could choose to do X". But that is not an answer to the question of why they chose X instead of Y. They had the free will to choose Y instead, so why didn't they?

 

If there is 'free will' in place, I can only think of two reasons why someone would choose a certain way--1) because of the 'sum' of their own desires, 2) 'randomity', i.e. they flipped a coin or did something whereby the choice was actually decided by chance.

 

Moving on to culpability, if those are the only two options, then we either have to hold the person responsible for their desires/inclinations, or hold them responsible for the way the coin landed, or not hold them responsible for their decision.

 

Far from it being unjust to judge people on their inclinations, It seems to me that is exactly what we do and God does also. Where does our heart lie (Matt 6:21)? What do we esteem one over another (Heb 11:26)? We can have conficting desires, of course (I want this but having it means hurting someone I love), but what we end up loving the most--the sum of our desires--is what we are judged for.

 

Of course, that begs the question why one person loves God more than anything else and another doesn't--why are their desires different? I'm not sure!

 

Asking why one person chooses to believe on Jesus while another rejects him proves nothing. That is like asking why some people like ketchup on a hot dog, while others prefer mustard. They just do. 

 

The problem is that if God cursed us to be born with a nature that desires sin, then sin is God's fault. Plain and simple. 

 

Men are born "flesh" with lusts and desires. The flesh simply desires to please itself, regardless of how it does it. This is what tempts us to sin. Eve was flesh and had desires BEFORE she sinned. Having lusts and desires is not sinful in itself, it is when we obey our lusts and desires and transgress one of God's laws that we sin. Sin is not something you are, sin is something you DO.

 

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

 

Eve displayed the three worldly lusts shown in 1 John 2:16 here;

 

#1 - the lust of the flesh: Eve saw the tree was good for food. It tempted her appetite and hunger. TV commercials depend on this lust, how many times has a pizza commercial made you hungry?

 

#2 - the lust of the eyes; Eve saw the fruit of the tree was pleasant to look at. It appealed to her sense of beauty. We are all tempted by a beautiful woman. TV commercials use attractive people to entice you to buy their products. 

 

#3 - the pride of life; Eve desired to eat the forbidden fruit because it would make her wise. It is not wrong to desire to be wise unless we do it to feel superior to our fellow man. Commercials appeal to our pride of life, we want those clothes that will make us more attractive, or that fancy car that will make us look like a real hot-shot. 

 

Was Eve evil when she had these desires? NO, God saw everything he had made, and it was "very good". Lust and desires do not make us evil, it is when we transgress God's law that we sin and become sinners. 

 

If Eve had walked away from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, she would have been no sinner. 

 

These desires of the flesh is what most people mistake for a sin nature. Jesus himself had these fleshly lusts. He was tempted in "all points" as we are, yet without sin. He could be "touched" with the "feeling" of our infirmities (weaknesses). He felt the tug and pull of the flesh just as much as we do, perhaps far more, as he never satisfied these lusts when they would have caused him to sin.

 

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
 
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
 
We are fortunate that Jesus became flesh, because he can relate and sympathize with our fleshly weaknesses. He knows exactly how strong the pull and tug of the flesh is. 
 
Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
 
We are born flesh, and we learn early to satisfy our fleshly desires. This does not make us sinful, it is when we KNOWINGLY choose to disobey one of God's commands that we become "sinful".
 
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
 
God did not punish the little children of the Jews who sinned in the wilderness. Why? Because they did not know between good and evil. 
 
It is KNOWLEDGE that makes us accountable before God. This is why Adam and Eve died when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, because they now understood between good and evil. This is shown throughout the scriptures. 
 
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
 
Little children are not born knowing between good and evil and therefore are not accountable. When we mature and understand between good and evil, then we become accountable. This is why Paul said he "died" in Romans 7:9;
 
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
 
In verse 7, Paul describes when he learned the law as all Jewish boys and girls do. He said he would have not known sin, except for the law, he would have not known what lust is, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 
 
In verse 9 Paul tells us he was "alive" before the commandment came. He is speaking of being spiritually alive here. When he learned the law he became accountable and was convicted for his sin. He spiritually "died". He cannot possibly be saying he physically died. 
 
Paul thought the law would lead to life. He thought if he obeyed the law he would inherit eternal life. But sin used the law to convict him as a sinner and he spiritually died. The law is good, but sin uses the law against us to kill us spiritually. 
 
So, this is when we become sinners, when we knowingly and willingly transgress one of God's laws. Sin is not something you are, it is something you do, it is trangressing God's law. 
 
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
 
 
 
 
 

Edited by Winman, 27 July 2014 - 08:13 AM.


#10 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 11:19 AM

The first verse using the word sin is found in Genesis 4:7 before Cain sinned.  However it is found after the fact that Adam sinned by willfully (with free will) eating of the fruit of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and Evil.

 

 Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Cain at this point is not said to have sinned but that he was real close too.

 

Gen 3:6, 11 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.  ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

 

So it would seem that Adams willful eating of the fruit is his sin even though it never said it was in Genesis but we can understand that is what it was because of a later revelation unto Paul in Romans 5.

 Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. this is difficult to understand because the Doctrine of sin states that each of us got sin from Adam, well how did we get sin if it wasn't imputed?       
 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
clearly here it states that DEATH reigned from Adam until Moses and we understand that death still reigns ove men today.  And it further states that this death reigned over them who did not have the sin of the original man, this we know was the original sin of mankind, and also it is not the original sin of Lucifer.  We are here told that how that death was passed onto all men because of Adam.
 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 
this tells us that the offense of Adam which caused death will not be passed on to men in the same way when the figure of one to come arrives.  Death came to us because we were born of a man who disobeyed God and death was given to him as his punishment.  He did die and all his descendants also have this death in them and that this death was given them by Adam because of his transgression of God's instruction.    
 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.  So it is clear that if you want the life that comes through Jesus it will not be given in the same way that death was given to all men via our genetic code but as we all know it will be by grace through Faith alone.
 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  Only through faith can we have righteousness reign in life by our belief on the Cross of Jesus Christ.        
 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 
Because of the judgment given to Adam we are all condemned to death spiritually and physically. and by the righteousness of Christ those who believe on him get the free gift of God, salvation.  Again this is a work of God through our faith so no one gets salvation, righteousness or justification without it.   
 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.  Now here is the clearest statement that men were made sinners by the act of Adam's transgression. this means that the nature of sin was given to all men.  to say you don't believe men had sin nature is wrong that nature is in us by Adam.
 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
  So even though the offense of sin abounds in all men so grace is offered all men that they through imputed righteousness of Christ have eternal life.

 

I believe that is the clearest observation of scripture that shows that all men have a Sin Nature and once they believe on Christ's finished work of the cross they become partakers of the divine nature.   2Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.   There are many today who are not partaking in the divine nature that has been given them by the faith they have in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.  I see an application in this verse for the church even though I believe that this verse is doctrinally for Israel in the Great Tribulation yet to come.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 27 July 2014 - 01:09 PM.


#11 John81

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 12:36 PM

Just because one has a sin nature doesn't mean they have to give in to it. Two men can look at a woman and both be tempted to sin yet one refuses to give in to that sin nature and the other doesn't. The sin nature didn't make the second man give in to the temptation and sin, he chose that course himself.



#12 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 12:44 PM

 1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.



#13 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 01:51 PM

Jeremiah knew man had a sin nature...

Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV) 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ, 27 July 2014 - 02:46 PM.


#14 Winman

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:16 PM

Jeremiah knew man had a sib nature...

Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV) 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

This verse does not say man is born with a sin nature. The scriptures show man "corrupts' himself. The definition of corrupt means to go from good to bad, as when fruit spoils. 

 

Scripture shows man "corrupts" himself, or "goes astray" or "becomes filthy". This shows a progression from good to evil. 

 

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

 

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

Psa 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 
Does the Bible teach we are born sinful? NO, the Bible shows the very opposite, that God made man upright, but man has "corrupted" himself, he has "gone aside", he has "become filthy". All these show a progression from good to evil. 
 
Even the figures show a progression from good to evil. No clothing starts out filthy, no clothing starts out as a rag. Our sins have caused our cloke of righteousness to "become filthy" and torn. 
 
No leaf starts out dead. All leaves start out green and alive. It is our sin that causes our leaf to fade and die, our sin takes us away like the wind takes dead leaves away in the fall. But no leaf starts out dead and withered. 
 
The truth is right in front of your eyes, but false doctrine has blinded you. Men are not born sinful, but all men willingly choose to sin and become filthy. 

Edited by Winman, 27 July 2014 - 02:19 PM.


#15 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:50 PM

Psalms 58:3 (KJV) 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

#16 Jordan Kurecki

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:56 PM

The first verse using the word sin is found in Genesis 4:7 before Cain sinned.  However it is found after the fact that Adam sinned by willfully (with free will) eating of the fruit of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and Evil.

 

 Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Cain at this point is not said to have sinned but that he was real close too.

 

Gen 3:6, 11 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.  ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

 

So it would seem that Adams willful eating of the fruit is his sin even though it never said it was in Genesis but we can understand that is what it was because of a later revelation unto Paul in Romans 5.

 Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. this is difficult to understand because the Doctrine of sin states that each of us got sin from Adam, well how did we get sin if it wasn't imputed?       
 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
clearly here it states that DEATH reigned from Adam until Moses and we understand that death still reigns ove men today.  And it further states that this death reigned over them who did not have the sin of the original man, this we know was the original sin of mankind, and also it is not the original sin of Lucifer.  We are here told that how that death was passed onto all men because of Adam.
 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 
this tells us that the offense of Adam which caused death will not be passed on to men in the same way when the figure of one to come arrives.  Death came to us because we were born of a man who disobeyed God and death was given to him as his punishment.  He did die and all his descendants also have this death in them and that this death was given them by Adam because of his transgression of God's instruction.    
 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.  So it is clear that if you want the life that comes through Jesus it will not be given in the same way that death was given to all men via our genetic code but as we all know it will be by grace through Faith alone.
 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  Only through faith can we have righteousness reign in life by our belief on the Cross of Jesus Christ.        
 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 
Because of the judgment given to Adam we are all condemned to death spiritually and physically. and by the righteousness of Christ those who believe on him get the free gift of God, salvation.  Again this is a work of God through our faith so no one gets salvation, righteousness or justification without it.   
 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.  Now here is the clearest statement that men were made sinners by the act of Adam's transgression. this means that the nature of sin was given to all men.  to say you don't believe men had sin nature is wrong that nature is in us by Adam.
 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
  So even though the offense of sin abounds in all men so grace is offered all men that they through imputed righteousness of Christ have eternal life.

 

I believe that is the clearest observation of scripture that shows that all men have a Sin Nature and once they believe on Christ's finished work of the cross they become partakers of the divine nature.   2Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.   There are many today who are not partaking in the divine nature that has been given them by the faith they have in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.  I see an application in this verse for the church even though I believe that this verse is doctrinally for Israel in the Great Tribulation yet to come.

I find this to be the most convincing in favor of the doctrine of original sin/ the sin nature.



#17 Winman

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:56 PM

Now I will address Romans 5:12-21, a very famous passage commonly used to "prove" Original Sin. I will show you from scripture that Romans 5;12-21 does not prove Original Sin, in fact, it refutes it. 

 

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 
Does Romans 5:12 say a sin nature passed on all men? NO, it says DEATH passed upon all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. 
 
It is a fact that Augustine used a flawed Latin text that said "in whom" in verse 12, that he mistakenly interpreted to mean Adam. Almost all Greek scholars admit that the scriptures Augustine used gave a flawed intepretation, and that this verse should say, "because all have sinned" or "for that all have sinned" showing that men die because of PERSONAL sin, not Adam. This is a historical fact. 
 
Dr. J. W. “Jack” MacGorman, Distinguished Professor Emeritus of New Testament at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for over 56 years wrote this concerning Augustine's interpretation of Romans 5:12-21;
 

 
1. The Vulgate, a fourth-century Latin translation of the Bible, wrongly translated the last clause of Romans 5:12. Where the Greek text has, "Because all men sinned," the Vulgate rendered, "In whom all sinned." Adam was regarded as the unnamed antecedent of "in whom."
2. Upon the basis of this translation error in the Vulgate, Augustine (a.d. 354-430) developed his doctrine of original sin. He taught that all men were seminally present in the loins of Adam when he sinned. Thus he held that the whole human race sinned in Adam's sin. By virtue of our physical descent from Adam, we inherit his guilt. We are born guilty of original sin, according to Augustine. …
 
 
 
It was Augustine who first attempted to develop the concept of Original Sin from the scriptures. Unfortunately, he was using a flawed Latin text that implied death passed on all men because of Adam's sin, but that is not what Romans 5:12 says in the Greek. The Greek fathers NEVER agreed with Augustine's interpretation. This is HISTORICAL FACT. 
 
Next, does verse 14 say that all men sinned Adam's sin in the garden? NO, it very specifically says they HAD NOT sinned in the similitude of Adam's sin. If we were all in Adam's loins as some falsely teach, we would be guilty of Adam's EXACT sin. Verse 14 clearly refutes this error. 
 
And note that verse 14 mentions only men from Adam to Moses. This is solid PROOF that Romans 5:12-21 is not addressing the subject of Original Sin whatsoever, because if it was, it would apply to ALL MEN, not men from Adam to Moses only. 
 
No, what Paul is really saying is that the fact all men from Adam to Moses died PROVES sin was in the world. 
 
But in verse 13 Paul says sin is not imputed when there is no law. So why did men from Adam to Moses spiritually die? Because they broke the law written on their hearts that Paul showed in chapter 2. 
 
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
 
Paul had already explained in chapter 2 that men "without law" shall perish "without law". Why? Because all men by "nature" have the law written on their hearts. This is why men from Adam to Moses who had no written law perished. They DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin, that would be impossible, as no man had access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil after Adam and Eve were banished from the garden. 
 
Lastly, if Romans 5:12-21 is teaching that all men are made sinners unconditionally because Adam sinned, then verses 18-19 must also teach that all men are unconditionally made righteous because of Christ's obedience.
 
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 
You cannot violate Paul's form of argument in Romans 5:12-21. What applies to the first phrase must also apply to the second phrase in each verse. You cannot teach that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, and then Jesus's righteousness is conditionally imputed to those that believe. That violates Paul's form of argument. 
 
You have only two options to be consistent. 
 
#1 Adam's sin is "unconditionally" imputed to all men, likewise Jesus's righteousness is "unconditionally" imputed to all men. This would lead to Universalism, and Rom 5:18-19 is in fact the chief proof text used by Universalists. We know from scripture this interpretation is error, the scriptures are clear that not all men will be saved. 
 
#2 Adam's sin and condemnation is "conditionally" imputed to all men when they willingly and knowingly sin as Adam did, and Jesus's righteousness is "conditionally" imputed to all men who believe on Jesus as Jesus trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. 
 
#2 is the correct interpretation. When we knowingly and willingly sin as Adam did, we are judged or made "sinners" as Adam was, and those men who trust Jesus are judged or made "righteous" as Jesus was righteous because he trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. 
 
What Paul is teaching is what is known as "Legal Precedent". In law, a legal precedent is when the law uses a case (usually the first case) as a precedent or authority establishing a principle or rule that a court or other judical body adopts when deciding later cases involving similar issues or facts. This guarantees equal treatment and fairness under the law. 
 
So, however the first person who broke a law was treated, the law will normally use this as a standard in future cases. If the first person to break a law got 5 years in jail, persons who commit the same crime will most likely be given the same sentence. 
 
And this is what Romans 5 is teaching. When we sin as Adam, we are imputed "sinners" and sentenced to death, when we believe as Jesus we are imputed "righteous" and given the free gift of justification unto life. 
 
Romans 5:12-21 DOES NOT support Original Sin. Rightly interpreted it absolutely refutes it. 
 
 

Edited by Winman, 27 July 2014 - 03:55 PM.


#18 Jordan Kurecki

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:06 PM

 

Now I will address Romans 5:12-21, a very famous passage commonly used to "prove" Original Sin. I will show you from scripture that Romans 5;12-21 does not prove Original Sin, in fact, it refutes it. 

 

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 
Does Romans 5:12 say a sin nature passed on all men? NO, it says DEATH passed upon all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. 
 
It is a fact that Augustine used a flawed Latin text that said "in whom" in verse 12, that he mistakenly interpreted to mean Adam. Almost all Greek scholars admit that the scriptures Augustine used gave a flawed intepretation, and that this verse should say, "because all have sinned" or "for that all have sinned" showing that men die because of PERSONAL sin, not Adam. This is a historical fact. 
 
Dr. J. W. “Jack” MacGorman, Distinguished Professor Emeritus of New Testament at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for over 56 years wrote this concerning Augustine's interpretation of Romans 5:12-21;
 
 
 
It was Augustine who first attempted to develop the concept of Original Sin from the scriptures. Unfortunately, he was using a flawed Latin text that implied death passed on all men because of Adam's sin, but that is not what Romans 5:12 says in the Greek. The Greek fathers NEVER agreed with Augustine's interpretation. This is HISTORICAL FACT. 
 
Next, does verse 14 say that all men sinned Adam's sin in the garden? NO, it very specifically says the HAD NOT sinned in the similitude of Adam's sin. If we were all in Adam's loins as some falsely teach, we would be guilty of Adam's EXACT sin. Verse 14 clearly refutes this error. 
 
And note that verse 14 mentions only men from Adam to Moses. This is solid PROOF that Romans 5;12-21 is not addressing the subject of Original Sin whatsoever, because if it was, it would apply to ALL MEN, not men from Adam to Moses only. 
 
No, what Paul is really saying is that the fact all men from Adam to Moses died PROVES sin was in the world. 
 
But in verse 13 Paul says sin is not imputed when there is no law. So why did men from Adam to Moses spiritually die? Because the broke the law written on their hearts that Paul showed in chapter 2. 
 
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
 
Paul had already explained in chapter 2 that men "without law" shall perish "without law". Why? Because all men by "nature" have the law written on their hearts. This is why men from Adam to Moses who had no written law perished. They DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin, that would be impossible, as no man had access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil after Adam and Eve were banished from the garden. 
 
Lastly, if Romans 5:12-21 is teaching that all men are made sinners unconditionally because Adam sinned, then verses 18-19 must also teach that all men are unconditionally made righteous because of Christ's obedience.
 
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 
You cannot violate Paul's form of argument in Romans 5:12-21. What applies to the first phrase must also apply to the second phrase in each verse. You cannot teach that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, and then Jesus's righteousness is conditionally imputed to those that believe. That violates Paul's form of argument. 
 
You have only two options to be consistent. 
 
#1 Adam's sin is "unconditionally" imputed to all men, likewise Jesus's righteousness is "unconditionally" imputed to all men. This would lead to Universalism, and is in fact the chief proof text used by Universalists. We know from scripture this interpretation is error, the scriptures are clear that not all men will be saved. 
 
#2 Adam's sin and condemnation is "conditionally" imputed to all men when they willingly and knowingly sin as Adam did, and Jesus's righteousness is "conditionally" imputed to all men who believe on Jesus as Jesus trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. 
 
#2 is the correct interpretation. When we knowingly and willingly sin as Adam did, we are judged or made "sinners" as Adam was, and those men who trust Jesus are judged or made "righteous" as Jesus was righteous because he trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. 
 
What Paul is teaching is what is known as "Legal Precedence" in law. Legal Precedence is when the law is a precedent or authority establishing a principle or rule that a court or other judical body adopts when deciding later cases involving similar issues or facts. This guarantees equal treatment and fairness under the law. 
 
Romans 5:12-21 DOES NOT support Original Sin. Rightly interpreted it absolutely refutes it. 
 
 

 

Well, that just answered the questions I was having with how you rendered those verses.

 

It's very compelling. I will have to think upon this



#19 Winman

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:10 PM

Psalms 58:3 (KJV) 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

This verse is hyperbole and should not be taken literally. There has never been a child born that could instantly speak, much less tell lies which involves "intent"

 

If you are going to interpret verse 3 literally, then you need to interpret the verses following it literally as well. 

 

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
 
Is verse 3 speaking of all men? NOPE, it is speaking of "the wicked". Go down to verses 10 and 11 and David speaks of "the righteous"
 
10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

 

So, David was not speaking of "all men" in verse 3. 

 

In verse 4 David says the wicked are poisonous like an adder and deaf too. Are babies poisonous like an adder? That sure would make breastfeeding dangerous.  :nuts:

 

How about verse 6? Here David says the wicked have great teeth like young lions. Are babies born with a mouthful of huge teeth? Again, breastfeeding sure would be dangerous if this Psalm is to be taken literally. 

 

How about verses 7 and 8? Do babies melt like snails? Better keep them away from salt!

 

And do you really believe David was praying for all babies everywhere to pass away? Absurd. 

 

So, to take this Psalm literally and use it to form doctinre is ridiculous and foolish. This scripture is poetry and hyperbole or extreme exaggeration and should not be taken literally. 

 

Folks do not use the brains they were born with, and foolishly believe what others tell them without thinking.  :icon_confused:


Edited by Winman, 27 July 2014 - 03:35 PM.


#20 Winman

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:27 PM

Well, that just answered the questions I was having with how you rendered those verses.

 

It's very compelling. I will have to think upon this

 

It's compelling because it's TRUE. Romans 5:12-21 is not teaching Original Sin. Verse 14 proves that without a doubt. It directly says men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam. 

 

There is another famous verse that shows this as well. Romans 9:11;

 

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
 
Original Sin teaches that all men sinned "in Adam". Augustine believed we were all seminally present in Adam's loins and actually participated in his sin when he ate the forbidden fruit. Folks base this on Hebrews 7:9-10;
 
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
 
OK, first of all, how many sins had Jacob and Esau committed while they were in their mother's womb according to Romans 9:11? NONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA!
 
If you believe that Paul was teaching all men sinned with Adam being in his loins, then you would have to believe that Paul completely forgot this fact when he said Jacob and Esau had neither done good "or evil" in Romans 9:11.
 
I don't really believe Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would make a mistake like this, do you? 
 
And if Hebrews 7:9-10 is literal, you have opened a real can of worms. Why, because it says Levi paid tithes in his grandfather Abraham's loins, not Adam!
 
That would mean we are not only guilty of Adam's sin, but ALL of our grandfather's sins! 
 
But wait, it gets worse. Was it a sin for Abraham to pay tithes to Melchisedec? NO, it was good! It was an act of righteous worship. So not only would we be guilty of all our grandfather's sins, if our grandfathers believed and were saved, we would be saved too!
 
No, this is the ridiculous "Federal Headship" theory that did not even exist until the 16th century. It has no basis in scripture. 
 
Dr. Hargood also wrote of this ridiculous theory;
 

3. In the seventeenth century Johann Cocceius proposed a different theory of original sin. He taught that God entered into a covenant with Adam as the federal head of the human race. If Adam obeyed God, all mankind would receive eternal life; but if he disobeyed, all would be condemned to corruption and death. Since Adam sinned, God imputed his sin to all his descendants. This has been called the Federal Theory of Original Sin or the Theory of Condemnation by Covenant. It has influenced greatly the churches of the Reformed tradition. However, there is not one shred of evidence in the Bible that God ever entered into such a covenant with Adam. The theory was born in Europe, not Eden.
 
 
Original Sin is a false doctrine created by men without a word of support in scripture. This false doctrine has introduced more error into the church than any other such as baptizing babies and the Immaculate Conception. One error leads to another and on and on and on. 

Edited by Winman, 27 July 2014 - 03:32 PM.





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