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Original Sin/the Sin Nature

sin calvinism doctrine

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#121 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:11 PM

I like corn.



#122 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:14 PM

When I was little, we had a pet squirrel that was missing one toe.



#123 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:18 PM

We also had a pet crow once. This was back when the Bee-hive hairdo was popular for women. Well lo and behold, my cousins came for a visit, and that ol' crow was sitting on the rail of our front porch. My aunt got out of the car and started walking toward the house...and that crow made a bee-line for the Bee-hive...and landed right on top of her hairdo. 



#124 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:21 PM

I shot myself in the toe with a BB gun once...to see if it would hurt.

 

...and it did.



#125 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:27 PM

borborygmus - a rumbling or gurgling noise in the intestines



#126 Alimantado

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:47 AM

Now, it is not always easy to determine where temptation ends and sin starts. But temptation is not sin. But I believe most people believe that the fact we all get tempted is a sin nature. No, that is the flesh. The flesh simply lusts for whatever pleases it, it cannot choose what it wants. That is not sin. Sin is when we obey it when it would transgress God's law.

 

Right, but saying that temptation is not a 'sin nature' because temptation is not itself sin relies on a definition of 'sin nature' that goes something like 'people have desires for things that are sinful and this is itself sinful'. I'm asking if you and others think that is what the doctrine of original sin proposes and/or what you think the term means. Because if all folk mean by the term is something like 'propensity to commit sin', then establishing that having the propensity isn't itself sinful is neither here nor there. I think it would be good if folk (not just Winman) defined very clearly what they mean by 'sin nature' because it sounds to me like different definitions are being discussed all at once.



#127 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:20 AM

"Sin nature" - the natural inclination to yield to sinful desires.  It is wired into our fleshly bodies.  If we had no sin nature, it would be impossible for us to be tempted to sin.



#128 John81

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:30 AM

NN,

 

Much appreciated postings. When I was very young I had a small turtle. Someone set the turtle shelter (or whatever it was called, his little living environment...a round thing which held water and had an "island" in it with a fake palm tree) on top of the TV and the turtle died. That was back in the 60s when TVs were filled with vacuum tubes and the sets got hot. We think we accidently overheated the turtle and that brought about his demise.



#129 ThePilgrim

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:35 AM

Winman ( Win Man hmmmmm.I wonder how he came up with that moniker.) is a very clever fellow.  He has a well laid out presentation complete with graphics and videos. 

It's almost, sort of, like an infomercial, don't ya think.  How long and how many places, I wonder, has he gone through all this well laid out stuff. 

 

Ahh, forget it, just sitting here letting my imagination run wild.

 

God bless,

Larry



#130 John81

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:41 AM

That's what infomercials do; they play upon the imagination. This leads to thoughts of, "Well, I keep hearing this, maybe it really is something I should buy".

 

As our pastor tells us, turn that stuff off! If it's really something we need, we should already know we need it, we don't need to be told the same thing over and over again for a half hour or hour in order for us to suddenly realize we need something.

 

Put down the credit card, lay aside the check book, this widget isn't what is claimed and it's not something you need.



#131 Jordan Kurecki

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:39 AM

"Sin nature" - the natural inclination to yield to sinful desires.  It is wired into our fleshly bodies.  If we had no sin nature, it would be impossible for us to be tempted to sin.

Did Adam and Eve have a sin nature when they were tempted in the Garden?

Did Jesus Christ have a sin nature when he was tempted in the desert.

 

did you really just say we have to have a sin nature to be tempted to sin.



#132 Alimantado

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:17 AM

Did Adam and Eve have a sin nature when they were tempted in the Garden?

Did Jesus Christ have a sin nature when he was tempted in the desert.

 

did you really just say we have to have a sin nature to be tempted to sin.

 

Jordan, could you define what you mean when you say 'sin nature'?



#133 Alimantado

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:23 AM

"Sin nature" - the natural inclination to yield to sinful desires.  It is wired into our fleshly bodies.  If we had no sin nature, it would be impossible for us to be tempted to sin.

 

SFIC, so a 'sin nature' does not mean having sinful desires, it means a propensity to yield to those sinful desires. Is that what you mean?



#134 Jordan Kurecki

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:40 AM

SFIC, so a 'sin nature' does not mean having sinful desires, it means a propensity to yield to those sinful desires. Is that what you mean?

When I say sin nature, I mean nature that is inclined toward sin that causes us to gravitate toward sin.



#135 Alimantado

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:11 AM

When I say sin nature, I mean nature that is inclined toward sin that causes us to gravitate toward sin.

 
Ok, and you believe that a person can be 'tempted' to sin without being inclined toward that sin? Is that right? I ask this because you appear to imply such in your question to SFIC:
 
"did you really just say we have to have a sin nature to be tempted to sin."

 

Is an 'inclination toward sin' a different thing to having desires towards sinful things and/or having temptations to sin?

 

You also asked whether SFIC thinks Jesus had a sin nature (defined by you as 'nature that is inclined toward sin') when he was tempted in the desert. Winman's response to this question earlier was to say that Jesus had 'desires that tempt(ed)' him to sin, but that such is not the same thing as having a sin nature. Would you agree with him on that?

 

"If having desires that tempt us is a sin nature, then Jesus had a sin nature. He was tempted in ALL POINTS (think about that one for a minute) as we are, yet without sin."

 

Again, just trying to get to the bottom of what folk actually mean when they use the term...



#136 HappyChristian

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 12:55 PM

John Smyth is a very poor example, as he migrated to Mennonite before he died. His path took him from Anglican to Se-Baptist, to Mennonite.  As an IFB, my doctrinal beliefs don't come from him, but rather from scripture. Rightly divided scripture, not scripture being put up to twist into something that becomes a pet argument.  Such as original sin.  

 

Winman, that's enough with your mockery.  If you can't discuss something without resorting to childish thrusts, then remain silent.  Scripture you have provided does not, in fact, prove your thesis that people are not born with sin.

 

You can proclaim all you want that Romans 5:12 teaches only death as a result of sin, but you are dead wrong. "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world [sin may have originated with the devil, but scripture very clearly says that it came into this world by one man...and context shows that one man to be Adam], and death by sin [obviously this means that death now comes as a result of sin in the world]; and so death passed upon all men [simply meaning as a result of the sin in the world, death is something all people inherit], for that all have sinned."  Anyone who understands plain english can see that this prepositional phrase refers to the fact that death has come upon all for the reason that all have sinned.  That's the plain teaching of scripture.  

 

You, Winman, have posted a few things that in actuality cause doubt upon the deity of Christ.  You can claim that you haven't, but that is the effect of some of the things that you have said.  Now, here is your cease and desist order.  If you want to discuss and fellowship, great.  But stop introducing your blatantly perverted doctrines.  If you insist on continuing - even in arguing with this post - you will be banned.  But unlike BB, it won't be just for a month.  

 

 

~~

 

Jesus Christ was born sinless.  That is not going to be open to argument.  He is God. He was God before He became flesh.  Gen. 3:15 clearly tells us that He would be born of the seed of the woman.  Physically impossible since women do not have seed, but with God all things are possible. He did not inherit the sin nature with which we are all born (and for someone who supposedly has 8 kids to say that babies can't lie just because they can't speak is ludicrous...) because had He inherited it, He would not have been sinless and able to be the perfect sacrifice required for the sin of the world.

 

As a man, Jesus had the same issues we have: hunger, thirst, etc.  Without sin.  Hebrews 4:15 is clear on that:  "For we have an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities: but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."  He did not sin. We sin often.  By commission and omission, because of our natural bent toward that.  Natural meaning a distinct part of our nature with which we are born.  

 

Being tempted is not sin in and of itself.  Remember that we are in a fleshly body that has fleshly desires (not all desires are wrong...but when they are put in the wrong priority they become wrong).  Because of those fleshly desires, we can be tempted, enticed.  It is when we give in to those temptations (even if the desires are of a good thing, if they are in the wrong time/wrong place category, they are wrong) that is sin.  And continuing in giving in to temptation causes the temptations to expand and become worse and worse...

 

Jesus Christ hungered after His 40 days in the desert.  In His fleshly body, He needed food, just as we do.  And so, because of His hunger, He could have been susceptible to the devil's tempting Him.  But He wasn't. Why?  Simply because He was God and could not sin, even in His human form.  

 

 

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