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Defining 'the Holy Spirit gift of tongues'

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Okay.. so I along with most on this site agree that the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit has done is dash.. fulfilled it's purpose.. accomplished it's mission.. etc etc :)

But...  when I post in another forum trying to show what tongues really was....

Thinking it was purely earthly languages the speaker does not know, given by God to share the gospel with nearby unbelievers who are from a different dialect so the early christians could spread the Word and establish churches..

But then you get people who believe in tongues for now speaking of what happened in the church at Corinth.. and so they will say there is more to tongues than just what I have mentioned above.  They will refer to Paul saying how he spoke in the tongue of angels...  and how the guidelines in the books of Corinthians show more than just the above...

I am a bit fuzzy on it..  I have inclinations of what I think the scripture is saying.. but am unclear...

I am thinking the tongues in the church at Corinth.. were meant to be just like in Acts with the church at Jerusalem.. but with the paganism affecting the church at Corinth.. they were getting it wrong.. and so Paul was talking about doing it rightly..and referring to how they weren't doing it rightly, so you end up with some verses showing the clear practice of tongues and then others showing how the Corinthians were doing it wrong.

So just need some clarification.. whether the tongues in the Corinthians church was meant to be the same as in Acts..or whether something else was also going on with it, where it took on other applications.

thanks :)

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In Acts 2, Peter says that the tongues is in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.  "Tongues" is an instantaneous knowledge of another language in order to preach the gospel.  In that respect, "tongues" is a Hebrew "gift" of evangelism.  Since the demise of the Jewish "Sect of the Nazarenes" (assembled in synagogues), the "gift" has disappeared... for now. The gift of tongues will reappear following the rapture of the Body of Christ and during the Tribulation, where it will reappear in order for Israelite believers to fulfill the Great Commission.

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In Acts 2, Peter says that the tongues is in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.  "Tongues" is an instantaneous knowledge of another language in order to preach the gospel.  In that respect, "tongues" is a Hebrew "gift" of evangelism.  Since the demise of the Jewish "Sect of the Nazarenes" (assembled in synagogues), the "gift" has disappeared... for now. The gift of tongues will reappear following the rapture of the Body of Christ and during the Tribulation, where it will reappear in order for Israelite believers to fulfill the Great Commission.

okay so what was happening with the church at Corinth? Was it meant to be the same as Acts or was there more to it? 

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There were no "church buildings" as we know them today.  The early churches met in synagogues and/or private homes.  During this "transition period" between the identifiable Hebrew "Sect of the Nazarenes" and the establishment of the specifically Gentile "Body of Christ", the "gift of tongues" still operated as a means of propagating the gospel.  Notice that Paul states that "if" I spoke in the tongues of angels. You don't get to the complete severing of all ties with Judaism until the end of the Book of Acts.  "ekklesia" means "assembly", not necessarily a "church" - as in a building. Most make the mistake of not realizing that these "gifts" of tongues, healings, and instant transportation, will return following the removal of the Body of Christ.  The Hebrew "Sect of the Nazarenes" will reactivate during the Tribulation in order to fulfill the Great Commission.

Edited by beameup

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I agree with "beameup" on his explanations.  I also wanted to mention that the reason why (in part) they were given the gift of tongues during that time period is that the Jews required a sign. 1st Corinthians 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom". 

FBC, I think you are on the right track... those certain gifts were given for that certain time period (when God was dealing with the Jews).  They have disappeared during this current age of grace/church age.  Why? Because in this current time period " blindness in part is happened to Israel".  How long will that last? "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (we find this in Romans 11:25).  So right now, during this current age those apostolic gifts have disappeared until after the rapture of the church/bride/saved.  THEN (after the church/bride/saved are with the Lord, God will again turn His attention back to Israel, and once again those gifts will return because the Jews will still "require a sign". 

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The biggest problem with any person who pretends the gifts of the Spirit are still in existence today is that they elevate the the Holy Spirit above Christ.

The Spirit was poured out over all flesh at Pentecost to elevate Christ by conviction of sin, Jesus' Righteousness and of His judgement on us to come. The Spirit never places emphasis on Himself.

This is the dead giveaway that their ideas are not of God. The Spirit is here with one purpose only and that is to testify of Christ.

If whatever it is that they are pretending to speak does not testify of Christ then it is of satan. Oh and BTW: it never does.

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Since the demise of the Jewish "Sect of the Nazarenes" (assembled in synagogues), the "gift" has disappeared... for now. The gift of tongues will reappear following the rapture of the Body of Christ and during the Tribulation, where it will reappear in order for Israelite believers to fulfill the Great Commission.

 Most make the mistake of not realizing that these "gifts" of tongues, healings, and instant transportation, will return following the removal of the Body of Christ.  The Hebrew "Sect of the Nazarenes" will reactivate during the Tribulation in order to fulfill the Great Commission.

Beammeup.  Please can you give scripture references for that as I read that tongues would cease, which they did, but I don't read that they will start again.

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

 

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Hey folks,I just wanted to add  that the church in Corinth was a young church. Paul was just instructing them to do things decently and in order. "Don't be speaking in tongues when some unlearned one come walking through the door. That person will think you were all mad!"(my words). I do not think that there was too big of a problem with this gift during the time, just to handle it wisely. 

Edited by fbc
more clear understanding and typos

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In Acts 2, Peter says that the tongues is in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.  "Tongues" is an instantaneous knowledge of another language in order to preach the gospel.  In that respect, "tongues" is a Hebrew "gift" of evangelism.  Since the demise of the Jewish "Sect of the Nazarenes" (assembled in synagogues), the "gift" has disappeared... for now. The gift of tongues will reappear following the rapture of the Body of Christ and during the Tribulation, where it will reappear in order for Israelite believers to fulfill the Great Commission.

Act 10:45 - 46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

1 Corinthians 13:1-2     ¶ Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Modern Pentecostals do not have all faith and knowledge! They pick and choose what parts relate to modern times.

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Another thing you have to realize about 1 Cor 13:1-2 is that Paul is not affirming that he speaks in angelic language or even that there is an angelic language. Rather, if you look at critically, you'll see that it is a conditional statement that should be read something like "even if I spoke with the tongues of men and of angels." I could go into a deeper explanation from the Greek, but it is entirely a rhetorical "if" statement akin to "even if I could jump 30 feet in the air, it wouldn't matter if I was in a building with 12-foot ceilings." Paul's statement is that it doesn't matter what language someone speaks or how eloquently they speak, if they do it without love it's completely useless.

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Act 10:45 - 46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts is a transitional book.  The "transition" was between the Jewish based "Sect of the Nazerenes" and the final "casting off" of Judaism by Paul in Acts 28, which established the predominantly Gentile "Body of Christ" (ie: "church").  During this "transition period", Judaism was the "vehicle" which would usher in the Millennium.  Following the removal of the Body of Christ (yet future), the "Sect of the Nazerenes" will again come into existence and usher in the return of Messiah.

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Acts is a transitional book.  The "transition" was between the Jewish based "Sect of the Nazerenes" and the final "casting off" of Judaism by Paul in Acts 28, which established the predominantly Gentile "Body of Christ" (ie: "church").  During this "transition period", Judaism was the "vehicle" which would usher in the Millennium.  Following the removal of the Body of Christ (yet future), the "Sect of the Nazerenes" will again come into existence and usher in the return of Messiah.

Horse feathers doctrine

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Okay, first, the early church is NEVER seen meeting in synagogues-they met, according to Acts 2, in the temple, (which would have probably been in the very-large court of the Gentiles, which was big enough to hold thousands), and from house to house. Not in synagogues.

As for tongues-what was happening in Corinth was a false tongues-they were imitating the ecstatic tongues used in the local pagan temples. All Paul had to say about what they were doing was negative, not in any way positive. Notice, "Though I speak with the tongues of men AND angels", not men OR angels. From biblical record there is no reason to believe angels ever spoke any different language than that of men. There is no heavenly language that the Bible ever mentions or even implies-it is just reading into it what they wanted to see.

Tongues was always a foreign language the speaker could not understand, and even, at times, it may have been a language they DID understand, but the hearers could not. Why do I say this? Because, if God suddenly gave someone the miraculous ability to speak in a language they didn't know, (as on Pentecost), we should assume there would be someone there to understand (as on Pentecost) and translate, as was the requirement for speaking tongues among the church. Why, then, did Paul have to admonish them that if there were no interpreters, to not speak? If it was a miracle, how would they know beforehand? If it were a miracle, would we not rightly assume God knew what He was doing and that He would cause someone to translate for the benefit of all? Then why tell them to forbear if there be no translator? So this HAD to be given to those who spoke other languages by learning, but had no one to translate for the edification of all present. Like having a missionary from Swaziland who speaks no English-it would be silly to have him speak to a church full of folks who don't speak Swahili. So we need a translator.

Please explain this?

Also, I believe, called Fiddlesticks doctrine

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Okay, first, the early church is NEVER seen meeting in synagogues-they met, according to Acts 2, in the temple, (which would have probably been in the very-large court of the Gentiles, which was big enough to hold thousands), and from house to house. Not in synagogues.

As for tongues-what was happening in Corinth was a false tongues-they were imitating the ecstatic tongues used in the local pagan temples. All Paul had to say about what they were doing was negative, not in any way positive. Notice, "Though I speak with the tongues of men AND angels", not men OR angels. From biblical record there is no reason to believe angels ever spoke any different language than that of men. There is no heavenly language that the Bible ever mentions or even implies-it is just reading into it what they wanted to see.

Tongues was always a foreign language the speaker could not understand, and even, at times, it may have been a language they DID understand, but the hearers could not. Why do I say this? Because, if God suddenly gave someone the miraculous ability to speak in a language they didn't know, (as on Pentecost), we should assume there would be someone there to understand (as on Pentecost) and translate, as was the requirement for speaking tongues among the church. Why, then, did Paul have to admonish them that if there were no interpreters, to not speak? If it was a miracle, how would they know beforehand? If it were a miracle, would we not rightly assume God knew what He was doing and that He would cause someone to translate for the benefit of all? Then why tell them to forbear if there be no translator? So this HAD to be given to those who spoke other languages by learning, but had no one to translate for the edification of all present. Like having a missionary from Swaziland who speaks no English-it would be silly to have him speak to a church full of folks who don't speak Swahili. So we need a translator.

Also, I believe, called Fiddlesticks doctrine

But of which post are you answering to right now, I got lost somewhere in here.

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Please explain this?

Acts 24:5 For we (Ananias the high priest, the elders, and Tertullus) have found this man (Paul) a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call (sect) heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

But we (the Jews at Rome) desire to hear of thee (Paul) what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

Sect/Heresy is the same word. I reject Jesus and the disciples/apostles being heretics. Sect/heresy of the Nazarenes is what the Pharisees and Beameup calls all the early Jewish converts. I call them church members.

“I remember several years ago the table game “Trivial Pursuit” came out, and there was a segment of that game called “Bible Trivia.” One of my students came into class one night and said, “I’m glad I come to your class, I won Bible Trivia the other night because of this class.” I wanted to know what the trivia question was, and she told me, “What Book in the Bible was transitional?” And the answer was the Book of Acts, and indeed it is.” Les Feldick

 

 

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Acts 24:5 For we (Ananias the high priest, the elders, and Tertullus) have found this man (Paul) a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call (sect) heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

But we (the Jews at Rome) desire to hear of thee (Paul) what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

Sect/Heresy is the same word. I reject Jesus and the disciples/apostles being heretics. Sect/heresy of the Nazarenes is what the Pharisees and Beameup calls all the early Jewish converts. I call them church members.

 

 

Ah, ok, got it now, thanks MC

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Sect/Heresy is the same word. I reject Jesus and the disciples/apostles being heretics. Sect/heresy of the Nazarenes is what the Pharisees and Beameup calls all the early Jewish converts. I call them church members.

In France Secte is what we would call a cult

Culte is what we call a church service.

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Prior to the coming of Messiah, there were three major sects within Judaism: Essenes, Sadducees, and Pharisees. They all met in the same synagogue.

Currently, there are four major sects of Judaism, however, they each have their own synagogue.  The Nazarenes were a sect that emerged from the followers of Messiah.  Records indicate that the Nazarenes were present within synagogues until the second and third centuries.

Edited by beameup

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