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Guest DSY

Origin of Baptist

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Guest DSY   
Guest DSY

This is a question we encounter most of the time, on where, when and who established the baptist church. I am a bible baptist and this our some questions that makes me wonder too. I was asked by a friend on how come baptist churches are not the same, there is no unity and different doctrines and That is when I started asking myself too. I don't doubt my beliefs but as a baptist I think it is imp to know what you believe in. I am new to this site and I would love to hear your answers. Thank you!  

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I am Christian by faith, Baptist by conviction! because Independent Baptist is the only denomination that believes the word of God as its final authority for matters of faith and practice.we are the only ones who believe that Baptism has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.i take the bible ( king James) literally except where impossible to do so,at which point God will tell you its spiritual. we are not protestant therefore we are not a break off of the catholic church! as for our origin, they were first called Christians at Antioc. a persons name will tell you where they stand. we are not apart of a cooperative program or a holy mother church. I am old fashion Bible Believing, King James Only,premillinial, washed in the blood , born in the fire so the smoke don't bother me! and I have eternal life . if you need a date for its origin I'm sure one of my scholarly brethren can help. if a Methodist were closest to sound doctrine, that is what I would be. hope this helps.

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1. In short: God called John, "The Baptist"; Baptist is a title, not a family name. The name Baptist  was God given.

2. John Baptized Jesus with Baptist baptism, making Jesus a Baptist.

3. Jesus built His church during His earthly ministry, making that church a Baptist church.

I posted a devotional about this subject here.

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1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

1. In short: God called John, "The Baptist"; Baptist is a title, not a family name. The name Baptist  was God given.

2. John Baptized Jesus with Baptist baptism, making Jesus a Baptist.

3. Jesus built His church during His earthly ministry, making that church a Baptist church.

I posted a devotional about this subject here.

I would be curious as to how the incident in Acts chapter 19 fits into this explanation. These 12 men in Ephesus, who were called disciples and were meeting in Christ's name, were also baptized by John the Baptist, making them "Baptists" by your reckoning, as it did Christ. However, when Paul learned they had been baptized by John, he re-baptized them. It is stated clearly in this passage that John's baptism was a "baptism of repentance". If this is the recognized nature of John's baptism, how then did it make Christ a baptist, and no one else? 

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1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

1. In short: God called John, "The Baptist"; Baptist is a title, not a family name. The name Baptist  was God given.

2. John Baptized Jesus with Baptist baptism, making Jesus a Baptist.

3. Jesus built His church during His earthly ministry, making that church a Baptist church.

I posted a devotional about this subject here.

John the Baptist was a Baptist, meaning he baptized with water. Those who were baptized did not become "Peter the Baptist" for example. The disciples did baptize with water but were never called "Baptists". Paul also baptized a few people in water although he was sent "not to baptize but to preach the gospel". But John's was only a baptism of repentance and he was not technically a Christian meaning he died before Jesus was crucified and John was not saved by faith in Paul's gospel.... Also John's baptism is different to water baptism today. As water baptism is not necessary for salvation and John never baptized anyone into Christ. Christians are baptized into Christ without water, by the Spirit. and later water baptized as an ordinance, outward testimony etc..

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The church did not begin with John the Baptist. I am not a Baptist brider. John baptized to reveal the messiah to Israel,see John 1:31 the church began at Pentecost and was later revealed to paul . we baptize because it is a ordinance of the church , but we are Christians because we follow Christ.. 1st Corinthians 12:13 is not a water baptism but a Spiritual that places us into the body of Christ.

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not trying to offend anyone, John the Baptist was a friend of the groom and not in the body of Christ! there is nothing wrong with the scriptures , it all fits like a glove if we rightly divide them. remember when Jesus told peter flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto you, but my father has revealed it,after Peter said Thou art the Christ ,the Son of God? it was revealed to peter who Jesus was because he had been baptized by John. Peter being a Jew of coarse.this was the purpose of Johns baptism.here is where I loose some: there is only one body of Christ and it is not local! I am a local church man , I believe everything is done through the local church , having said that the church is universal . even if I don't like the word. hope this helps , Pastor Coley

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27 minutes ago, Joe Coley said:

.here is where I loose some: there is only one body of Christ and it is not local!

Amen. This shouldn't lose anyone. I'm aware it's "hyper-dispensational" when some try to say there are 2 bodies. Which is easy to show false.

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Sorry folks, it was early morning when I posted about the name Baptist. I wasn't fully awake and did not address the original question. I zeroed in on the name baptist, but the original question was "when and who established the baptist church."

The answer of course is that Jesus established it during his personal ministry on earth.

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On 9/3/2016 at 0:24 PM, Guest DSY said:

when and who established the baptist church.

Jesus Christ himself established his church on the shores of Galilee when he called his first disciples to follow him.  Jesus Christ established the New Testament Church and it is Independent, Fundamental, Soul-Winning Baptists (as they are called in America) that most closely follow the scriptures according to our enemies.

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22 minutes ago, InSeasonOut said:

Amen. This shouldn't lose anyone. I'm aware it's "hyper-dispensational" when some try to say there are 2 bodies. Which is easy to show false.

The word “Church” is used 3 different ways in the Bible

 

EXAMPLE OF 3 CHURCH DEFINITIONS

The Noel Family”

  • Local – My wife, the children and I. "We are the Noel Family".

  • Visible - Dad, Mom, sisters, Uncles, aunts, cousins. All Noels alive, but not all of a local household. "The Noels will have a reunion in Kentucky in Oct."

  • Universal - All ancestors from the time of first founding Noel. "The Noel family can be traced back to the 1100's"

  • All usages are legitimate and proper, and determined by context. Why is this so hard to understand in the church today?!?

 

  1. Universal Church – Spiritual - All saints, past, present and future, whose names the Father knows and are written in heaven. – UNDER CHRIST, UNDER NO OFFICE OR MAN ON EARTH.

  1. Hebrews 12:22-23

  2. Eph 5:23,25,27,29

  3. Col 1:18-24

  4. Revelation 19:7, Revelation 21:9 and (2Corinthians 11:2 – proof text that the bride is the church)

 

  1. Visible Church made of all saints alive on earth, general reference to believers as a whole.

  1. 1Co 12:13

  2. 1Co 15:9

  3. Galatians 1:13

  4. Philippians 3:6

 

  1. A particular assembly of believers that meet together in one place, such as the churches addressed in the epistles. The word “churches”, plural, appears 36 times.

  1. Ro 16:5

  2. Col 4:15

  3. Acts 13:1

All three usages exist in scripture to refer to the church, and all three are legitimate, based on scriptural context. If we throw out scriptural doctrine simply because the reprobate misuse it, are we any better than they are? We must stop studying doctrine, and start prayerfully studying the scripture with humility and courage. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, weary warrior said:

The word “Church” is used 3 different ways in the Bible

I wasn't disputing different ways "church" is used. I was disputing that there are not 2 bodies of Christ. There's only 1.

.... I understand the body of Christ is the church..... but I don't understand what you were getting at...?

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stop studying doctrine? makes for good preaching, ...... 2nd Tim. 3:16 doctrine is simply what is true and what is not. 

when Paul addressed a church in a city , it was not the Methodist, presb, or even Baptist . it was the blood washed saints. I am pastor of a local Church and there are probably lost folks in it. no lost folks in the true church!  there is the church in the wilderness, the church of Satan, church is a called out assembly. just more cud to chew. 1st cor. 12:13 is not a visible church ,but a spiritual baptism into an invisible body! the only one I am sure of that is in it is me. we can not no the truth of others.

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I will answer both of the above posts here. I don't know how to do separate quotes at once.

I wasn't disputing anything InSeasonOut said. I apologize for not being clearer. I realize that my usage of the quote function was confusing. As to what I was getting at, I was responding to those who reject out-of-hand any reference to a universal church.

As for Joe Coley's input, I will clarify. Doctrine is the chief thing. I understand that, I agree with that. I know the definition. I also know after 50 years in IFB churches all over the world that we tend to take a doctrine that we have been given by someone else and study the few select verses that seem to shore up and defend that doctrine. We become locked in an intellectual, scriptural box, and the lock is our own fear of being wrong, or finding out that our revered teacher was wrong. If, however, we prayerfully study scripture itself with humble courage and let the doctrinal chips fall where they may, the doctrinal truth will be given to us by the Spirit of God, and there will be no contradiction, confusion or conflict. Scripture will answer for itself, if we will let it. 

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"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gift of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?" 1 Corinthians 12:28 & 29 The church was started by the Lord Jesus, baptism was given to the church by John the Baptist (as Jim Alaska stated, Baptist is a title, not a name). Peter, nor any of the other apostles were not called Peter the Baptist as not all are called "titled" the same thing.

As was stated previously (please read Jim Alaska's devotion that he referenced too), the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost for empowerment to witness; not to start the church. The Lord Jesus, "the chief corner-stone," started the church while He was on the earth. 

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." Ephesians 2:19 & 20

In both 1 Corinthians 12:29 & 20 and Ephesians 2:19 & 20, the "prophets" mentioned would include John the Baptist as one of the prophets as set in the foundation of the church.

  

Edited by Alan
spelling rephrased the last sentence to make clearer

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1 hour ago, Alan said:

As was stated previously (please read Jim Alaska's devotion that he referenced too), the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost for empowerment to witness; not to start the church. The Lord Jesus, "the chief corner-stone," started the church while He was on the earth.

I'll comment on Alaska's devotion tomorrow if I find time... what I have to say isn't quite relevant for this topic here. But I will say I believe(d) the church began at Pentecost but it may actually be before that, since reading comments and the above devotion... i'll have to look into this more. I'd dispute 1 or 2 minor things , but theres some good points.

I know many Christians don't like to accept correction, and I try not to be one of them. Of course many doctrines are set and ive been assured of them, but i'll willingly admit I might be wrong on when the church began... (theres a certain verse of scripture I need to find first)

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No doubt the church that God sees (the body of Christ) started during our Lord's earthly ministry. However, the local church (that we can see) started at Pentecost with the first local church recorded at Jerusalem and once offices were established.

 

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hmmmm....

Mat_16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat_18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I don't see them sounding shocked and confused and asking "What is this church thing you are talking about Lord?" or "what is this church thing that we are tell this to, Lord?"

And what exactly is a church? IFB normally define it something like, "A called out body of baptised believers, organised together to do the work of the Gospel" or something similar to that.

Where do we see something like that in Scripture?

I seem to remember Jesus calling a few people who had been previously baptised by John. And if my memory is correct, they had a treasurer (John 12:6), so they were at least somewhat organised. I think they might have had a guy who was sort of qualified to be their Pastor too......

Of course they are not specifically CALLED a church in the Bible, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it might just be a duck.......

Maybe that's why they didn't question what Jesus meant in those two verses?

Just sayin.......

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But also please consider In Matt 16 the Lord uses the term I will (not I have) but I will. He was obviously speaking future tense and of Pentecost while referencing Peter which He did on other occasions also. I seriously doubt Peter would have been considered our Lord's pastor nor the other disciples pastor in Matt 16. Peter was hardly qualified at the time the Lord said it since he was obviously unregenerate at the time, referred to as satan by the Lord for his ignorance and easily sifted like wheat by satan, a hothead hacking off ears and then later denies the Lord while cursing about it. Oh, don't get me wrong Peter was transformed by the Spirit after all this occurred however and it is recorded in Acts. John chapter 21: 15-19 records our Lord's final instructions to Peter who will become the first pastor of the first local NT church after our Lord's Ascension..

In addition, treasurer is not a church office according to Acts which defines, organizes and lays out how a local church is to be structured and operate. Prior to Pentecost, there were no elders, pastors or deacons identified. Local churches in Scripture all had names whether by house or by town.

The disciples did not question His teaching on much period and when they did, they still didn't understand the Lord's explanations. The Lord knew full well that they didn't, how could they?

Just food for thought

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16 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

I'll comment on Alaska's devotion tomorrow if I find time... what I have to say isn't quite relevant for this topic here. But I will say I believe(d) the church began at Pentecost but it may actually be before that, since reading comments and the above devotion... i'll have to look into this more. I'd dispute 1 or 2 minor things , but theres some good points.

I know many Christians don't like to accept correction, and I try not to be one of them. Of course many doctrines are set and ive been assured of them, but i'll willingly admit I might be wrong on when the church began... (theres a certain verse of scripture I need to find first)

Yes im quoting myself.... I actually decided to start another topic on when the church began as I made notes and is a very long response. Challenging and fun.

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1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

At the risk of secluding myself from those whom I hold dear on this forum, and at the risk of being labeled a heretic, I am moved to say (and feel I must say) this...

While I hold firmly to the historical Baptist distinctives, and I will always associate myself as a Baptist...and furthermore, as an Independent Fundamental Baptist, my allegiance isn't to being a Baptist. My allegiance is to Christ.

History, ecumenism, and modernism have all shown (and proven in my opinion) that alignment with a particular group can have unforeseen consequences. To call one's self a Baptist is no longer adequate in today's world. One must clarify what is meant by being a Baptist. Furthermore, one must clarify what one means by being an Independent Baptist. Even further, one must clarify what one means by being an Independent Fundamental Baptist.

In all honesty, I don't see how this can be turned around. Is this the fault of being "a Baptist"? Yes and no.

From what I've seen, men have crept in unawares, and caused both division and derision as to what a Baptist is. I saw on another forum the following..."Are all Baptists Calvinists?"

Huh?

Really?

However, it was a sincere question. The blame lies with those in the past who were ecumenical...those who didn't want to cause trouble...those who didn't want to hurt someone's feelings...those who wanted to be accepted...those who placed ecumenism above doctrine...those who wanted to please men above pleasing God.

Why did Jesus ask that when he returned, would he find faith on earth? It will be such a mishmash of beliefs that one can't distinguish true faith. People will be beholden to particular systems of belief instead of true belief (faith).

So...while I may offend some here by these words...yet, I will continue to personally identify myself as an Independent Baptist...I will know that in my heart, soul, and mind...my identity is with Christ and Christ alone.

I am Baptist by conviction; however, my allegiance is to Christ and Christ alone.

Perhaps I'm in a bad place in my life right now, but I'm tired of having to explain what I mean by being a Baptist. Even in my own little area, people have different ideas of what a Baptist is. I can explain it, and I can try to proclaim it...but at the end of the conversation, they seemingly still see no difference between a true Baptist and what's known as a Bapticostal in my area (Baptist with Pentecostal influence). Bapticostal is an accepted term here. People believe what they want to believe.

Like I said, I don't know how it can be turned around. It's almost to the point that I feel that I need to identify myself as something different.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

I want to hear, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."...not..."Well done, thou good and faithful Baptist."

If I've offended anyone or caused anyone to doubt my beliefs; I apologize. I will always be a Baptist; I just don't know what to do with today's circumstances.

 

 

If I could like this 3 times, I would do so!

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Honestly Wretched, sometimes I wonder...... :laugh:

I am building a house. I have the foundation down, and I am beginning the walls. A bloke walks up and says to me "You will never finish that house", to which I reply "I absolutely Will build my house, and in good time too".

It doesn't have to indicate that the process hasn't begun.

And it ABSOLUTELY doesn't point to Pentecost in particular even if you want to force it to be exclusively future tense.

 

As to who the pastor was.... really?

The pastor of that church was clearly the Lord Jesus Christ.

I never said that treasurer was an office, I said it indicated organisation - which it absolutely does.

And the disciples did question the Lord on several things - but not on this.

None of these is a solid case alone, but all of them together sort of make a point.

 

But I don't really care.

There was certainly a church prior to Pentecost.

And by your reasoning the church didn't start then because it was not named........

Edited by DaveW

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I was Baptized in a Catholic Church when I was a baby, circumcised the next day. In my 20’s I was Baptized in her Baptist Church.

She is no longer with me and I now just call myself a Christian. Is this act of mine a sin-?

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4 hours ago, jamesduncan said:

I was Baptized in a Catholic Church when I was a baby, circumcised the next day. In my 20’s I was Baptized in her Baptist Church.

She is no longer with me and I now just call myself a Christian. Is this act of mine a sin-?

This has nothing to do with the thread, james. Should you seriously desire to discuss this, please feel free to start a thread.

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