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Brother Stafford

Preaching Preference

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 10:56 AM, Invicta said:

We once had a pastor who said, "We become Christians because we want to go to heaven." and I have heard some say "We become Christians because we don't want to go to Hell."  Both are false teachings .

When preaching the Gospel,we should start by telling sinners who God is. When God told Isaiah to preach to Cyrus, long before the latter was born God continually restated who He Is.

Isaiah 44:24  Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25  That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;26  That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof: 7  That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:  28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
1 ¶  Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2  I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3  And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4  For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 ¶  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8  Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
9  Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

He continues.

11 ¶  Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12  I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

18  For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

21  Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

He then tells the world how to be saved,

22  Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

When Peter preached at Pentecost, he said, "You killed the author of life" The Jews knew who God was and most recognised who Jesus was.  

14 ¶  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:  20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And what was the result of this sermon (Which had no mention of Hell).

37 ¶  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Peter then tells them the way of salvation

38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

The result?

41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
 

Note the promise in verse 39 includes to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. and that includes us

To return to my opening sentence, I believe that if we try to come to Christ for those two reasons, we are coming for what we can get out of it, and that is a works based salvation,  We should come to Christ because we realise we are vile sinners who have sinned against a just and holy God who sent his only begotten son to take our place and nailed our sins to his tree, and rose from the dead so that we may rise with him at the resurrection.

 


 

The passage of Pentecost you quote makes no mention in any way of your conclusion at the bottom "We should come to Christ because we realise we are vile sinners who have sinned against a just and holy God who sent his only begotten son to take our place and nailed our sins to his tree, and rose from the dead so that we may rise with him at the resurrection."         yet you attempt to use it as a proof text against condemnation.

In addition you say: When Peter preached at Pentecost, he said, "You killed the author of life" The Jews knew who God was and most recognised who Jesus was.  How could they unless they had already had seeds sown from our Lord's own Sermons in the Gospels.

Those same Jews Peter was preaching to at Pentecost also knew of the Lord's Sermons which mentioned condemnation and hell constantly.  See verse 22 from your post:  "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" 

If they knew beforehand (IE seeds sown) that they were vile sinners then they had also heard and understood that this vile sinner status carried condemnation along with it. Peter's sermon mentions none of this "vile sinners or condemnation" but it certainly infers both to an audience Peter was 100% sure had heard the sin and condemnation sermons of our Lord.

Your entire post here is moot from the standpoint of attempting to remove hell and condemnation from the Great Commission.

Most born again believers use the term preaching the Gospel (just like the Apostles) with the understanding that they mean the Great Commission and not just the one passage from I Cor 15:1-4. There has to be other seeds sown just as there were obviously with this crowd at Pentecost. They had the background and they were convicted of their sin and their coming judgment: IE, they were afraid...period.

 

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13 minutes ago, wretched said:

The passage of Pentecost you quote makes no mention in any way of your conclusion at the bottom "We should come to Christ because we realise we are vile sinners who have sinned against a just and holy God who sent his only begotten son to take our place and nailed our sins to his tree, and rose from the dead so that we may rise with him at the resurrection."         yet you attempt to use it as a proof text against condemnation.

In addition you say: When Peter preached at Pentecost, he said, "You killed the author of life" The Jews knew who God was and most recognised who Jesus was.  How could they unless they had already had seeds sown from our Lord's own Sermons in the Gospels.

Those same Jews Peter was preaching to at Pentecost also knew of the Lord's Sermons which mentioned condemnation and hell constantly.  See verse 22 from your post:  "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" 

If they knew beforehand (IE seeds sown) that they were vile sinners then they had also heard and understood that this vile sinner status carried condemnation along with it. Peter's sermon mentions none of this "vile sinners or condemnation" but it certainly infers both to an audience Peter was 100% sure had heard the sin and condemnation sermons of our Lord.

Your entire post here is moot from the standpoint of attempting to remove hell and condemnation from the Great Commission.

Most born again believers use the term preaching the Gospel (just like the Apostles) with the understanding that they mean the Great Commission and not just the one passage from I Cor 15:1-4. There has to be other seeds sown just as there were obviously with this crowd at Pentecost. They had the background and they were convicted of their sin and their coming judgment: IE, they were afraid...period.

 

Not sure I follow all your reasoning, it seems a bit muddled.

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8 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Not sure I follow all your reasoning, it seems a bit muddled.

Your summary at the bottom states:

To return to my opening sentence, I believe that if we try to come to Christ for those two reasons, we are coming for what we can get out of it, and that is a works based salvation,  We should come to Christ because we realise we are vile sinners who have sinned against a just and holy God who sent his only begotten son to take our place and nailed our sins to his tree, and rose from the dead so that we may rise with him at the resurrection.

However, your Scriptural passages do not support this summary unless you are conceding that Peter's sermon at Pentecost could not stand alone without previous seeds sown providing more background (which BTW: Peter's sermon already states that the audience had previous knowledge). In addition you leave out any mention of condemnation for the lost which logically indicates that you do not believe that knowledge is required in order for the lost to believe the Gospel.

I forgot to ask another question which I just bolded in your quote. So are you claiming that if one becomes convicted of sin, righteous and judgment, their faith in the Gospel then somehow becomes works-based?

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2 hours ago, wretched said:

Your summary at the bottom states:

 

I forgot to ask another question which I just bolded in your quote. So are you claiming that if one becomes convicted of sin, righteous and judgment, their faith in the Gospel then somehow becomes works-based?

That is not what I said.  

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 10:56 AM, Invicta said:

We once had a pastor who said, "We become Christians because we want to go to heaven." and I have heard some say "We become Christians because we don't want to go to Hell."  Both are false teachings .

This is your opening sentence

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 10:56 AM, Invicta said:

To return to my opening sentence, I believe that if we try to come to Christ for those two reasons, we are coming for what we can get out of it, and that is a works based salvation,  

This is your return to it.

If the Spirit reproves of sin, righteous and judgment, it will produce a new found need to be spared His wrath in Hell. That "need" manifests itself by the desire to escape Hell and go to Heaven. How could you believe this is works based? 

If that is not what you meant, could you please explain and clarify?

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, wretched said:

This is your opening sentence

This is your return to it.

If the Spirit reproves of sin, righteous and judgment, it will produce a new found need to be spared His wrath in Hell. That "need" manifests itself by the desire to escape Hell and go to Heaven. How could you believe this is works based? 

If that is not what you meant, could you please explain and clarify?

Duplicate

 

Edited by Invicta

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4 hours ago, wretched said:

This is your opening sentence

This is your return to it.

If the Spirit reproves of sin, righteous and judgment, it will produce a new found need to be spared His wrath in Hell. That "need" manifests itself by the desire to escape Hell and go to Heaven. How could you believe this is works based? 

If that is not what you meant, could you please explain and clarify?

No that is not what I meant  at all.  If the preacher says "Come to Jesus if you want to go heaven or if you on't want to go to hell," that is not the Holy spirit. I have already explained what I believe the gospel is.  

Just today during a conversation with two or three, I said "It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgement."  This was at our seniors lunch after our preacher compared the first coming of Jesus as a baby and his second as judge.

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7 minutes ago, Invicta said:

No that is not what I meant  at all.  If the preacher says "Come to Jesus if you want to go heaven or if you on't want to go to hell," that is not the Holy spirit. I have already explained what I believe the gospel is.  

Just today during a conversation with two or three, I said "It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgement."  This was at our seniors lunch after our preacher compared the first coming of Jesus as a baby and his second as judge.

Got it, I understand what you mean. I see that this time around I was countering with oranges while you were speaking of apples.

There is a wide gulf of difference in this matter between mental assent and heart belief. As wide a gulf as hell is to Heaven respectively.

Thank you for clarifying.

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On September 4, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Brother Stafford said:

How many of you prefer hard preaching?  Admonishing and fire & brimstone preaching is to what I am referring.

Brother Stafford, I think this is an excellent question & I wish more members would respond. Here are my thoughts:

Since I am already saved, I go to church because we are not to forsake the assembling of saints. IOW, because God says to. I want to obey Him to the very best of my ability, because He is my Father.

i know I cannot be perfect, & that I will be a sinner as long as I am in this sinful suit of flesh (Praise Jesus for His righteousness, by which I am saved), and that I am already sealed unto the day of redemption, being born again from God. Therefore, since I am now a child of God, He treats me as a daughter, and chastens & scourges me as one. 

I am not a glutton for pain & punishment, nor do I want to foster a life of misery by my own hand.. I  WANT to live a  life that is pleasing to God, and not just  sin with reckless abandon. 

That is exactly WHY I believe that hard preaching is vital to the believer!

Simply put, it is essential because it helps you get the sin out of your life. (And sometimes even helps you identify sins you didn't even realize you were committing!). Here in America, the preaching is so watered down & people are so easily offended that you start to wonder if even some of the regulars are saved. 

Maybe I am just thick-skinned, but I want to know where I'm messing up so I can correct it. I couldn't find a church when I first got saved that had a Pastor that wasn't afraid to rip face. And upon examining their fruit I discovered the congregation was ripe with drunkenness, fornication, sodomy, divorce, adultery, gossip, etc. Why? Because the Pastors were too afraid of offending the congregation to preach against it! I guess they were more concerned with having their fancy house & overflowing offering plates & rubbing elbows with politicians than the spiritual health of their congregations.

There was zero accountability in those churches & people's lives were a mess. It got to where I saw no difference between lives of those of the world & the churches. I wanted to go soul winning, see people get saved, see sin being squashed from lives(including my own). I told one Pastor once, "I will TELL you what I'm doing wrong if you'll preach against it!" Not a peep.

Sadly, MOST churches are like this, which is why they are so lame & falling away.

Anyhow, that's my two cents.

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I use to love and prefer only fire and brimstone preaching... However I think sometimes it's really easy for us to hear fire and brimstone preaching and that it's easy to say amen to. However I think encouragement and admonition is just as important. I also grow tired of preaching who get up and preach about all the sins except for the ones that their people are guilty about. It's really easy to preach against sins like sodomy, and abortion, because hardly anyone in our churches does those... I wish more preachers would preach on modesty and dress (and I mean actually talk about it instead of referring to it in vague generalities), the evils of public school system, worldly carnal entertainment, gossip, bitterness, etc. 

I am all for preaching about hell and telling sinners to repent.. but I just think preachers really need to get down to where their peoples needs are and as God leads them to deliver God's message to them. I am not particularly fond of dry expositions, or shallow messages either.. I guess It is hard to explain..So much preaching is shallow in it's exposition of the scriptures, and so many times I feel like there are topics that should be preached on, and they are avoided or when they are touched on its so shallow as to even have an effect. 

I think what we need today is true spirit filled men, who are sensitive to the heart of God, preaching and proclaiming God's message at God's timing.

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There has to be a balance of both hard preaching and the Love of God. On one hand, we can show how God came down in the flesh to pay the penalty of our sins so we can be saved. And on the other hand, we should also preach the consequences of rejecting the truth of the Word of God. This is how Jesus Himself preached. Jesus spoke on both Heaven and Hell. He explained the love of God towards sinners (Jn.3:16), and the penalty of rejecting the Gospel (Lk.13:28). I also used this method in my ministries when I preach to the Lost.

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