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Is anyone familiar with a book that addresses the English translations before the KJV?  I was asked about them by a friend of mine and I was taken off guard a bit.

We say that the KJV is God's perfectly preserved words in the English language.  He tells us that His words are perfectly preserved: Psalms 12:6-7.  If I understood her correctly, her question was, essentially, this: If God promises to preserve His words perfectly, does that mean that the English translations before the KJV were also perfect?  If so, why was the KJV necessary?  If not, then doesn't that mean that the people using the previous English versions didn't have a perfectly preserved copy of His words?

I have always understood the previous English versions as part of the process that gave us the end result of a perfected English version and that before the perfected KJV, God's words were still perfectly preserved in the old languages. 

I could use some help really working this out.  I don't want give an answer that will just get by; I am hoping to understand it as exhaustively as possible.  Any thoughts or recommendations?

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I do not know of a book that addresses that particular side of the subject, nor will I be able to give the exhaustive answer that you need. But I do know that leading up to the time that King James commissioned the translation, England had been in a long, slow state of knitting together into one from several different cultures and languages. From Danish, Saxon, Norman, Gaelic (both Scottish and Irish) Latin and others, the English language had finally evolved over several centuries into a unique language, and these disparagent cultures themselves had become English. Remember, King James himself came from Scotland, and his own political reason for commissioning the translation was in part to use the common language to help bind the English people into one common entity.

The translations before the King James version were translations into a still-fluid, still-evolving, not-quite-yet-gelled language. Does that make them inferior? Not in my opinion. Not for their time. Does it make them inferior for today? Yes, again, in my opinion. A fully evolved language needed a fully evolved translation. When the time was right, God gave us what was perfect for us, what we were ready for.

How does that relate to today? The English language has de-volved over the years since that time, and any Bible translation that is translated into an inferior language will produce an inferior Bible.

That's just my simple, not-intellectual understanding and explanation of the question at hand. I'm sure that there are others on here that are much more studied on the subject than I am.

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9 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

We say that the KJV is God's perfectly preserved words in the English language.  He tells us that His words are perfectly preserved: Psalms 12:6-7.  If I understood her correctly, her question was, essentially, this: If God promises to preserve His words perfectly, does that mean that the English translations before the KJV were also perfect?  If so, why was the KJV necessary?  If not, then doesn't that mean that the people using the previous English versions didn't have a perfectly preserved copy of His words?

I have always understood the previous English versions as part of the process that gave us the end result of a perfected English version and that before the perfected KJV, God's words were still perfectly preserved in the old languages. 

I could use some help really working this out.  I don't want give an answer that will just get by; I am hoping to understand it as exhaustively as possible.  Any thoughts or recommendations?

Brother Stafford,

The answer that I am about to present may get me into "hot water" with my fellow "KJV-onlyists." 

Some background -- I myself DO hold by conviction to the King James translation as the one acceptable English translation on the market today for the English speaker.  I come to this position through an application of a more foundational position, for I am actually a "TR-onlyist" for the Greek New Testament and an "MT-onlyist" for the Hebrew Old Testament.

A thought for consideration -- Is the precise teaching of Psalm 12:6-7 to be applied unto the King James translation, which has existed for approximately 400 years; or is the precise teaching of Psalm 12:6-7 to be applied unto the original writings of God's Holy Word under the original inspiration of God the Holy Spirit in the original languages of Hebrew and Greek, which have existed since their original inspiring by the Holy Spirit for thousands of years?

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3 hours ago, 1611mac said:

Glorious History of the English Bible perhaps? Softcover and/or eBook available in pdf, mobi (Kindle), ePub (iOS/Apple)  If you want I can setup a 25 page sample for you to view on site.

Thank you for that recommendation.  It's not necessary to post the sample pages; brother Could has already done so on his site.  Besides, brother Cloud has enough credibility that I do not need convincing to purchase anything he has written.

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RE: Glorious History sample

Ha... that's one for you.  I actually do his site and I forgot the sample is one I've already done.  This is something I've started doing just recently and not all books have samples yet!  

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Brother Cloud and his writings are invaluable to me.  When I am researching authors, preachers, doctrines &c., I always search his site to see what he has to say about them.  I do not think of him as my pastor, not do I "follow" him, but I do respect his opinion and scholarship over just about any author alive today.

* By the way, I recommend that every OB member get a copy of Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible and Christianity, if they don't already have one.  It's a wonderful work and is a great first Cloud book for those who are not familiar with him.

Edited by Brother Stafford

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1 hour ago, Brother Stafford said:

Brother Cloud and his writings are invaluable to me.  When I am researching authors, preachers, doctrines &c., I always search his site to see what he has to say about them.  I do not think of him as my pastor, not do I "follow" him, but I do respect his opinion and scholarship over just about any author alive today.

* By the way, I recommend that every OB member get a copy of Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible and Christianity, if they don't already have one.  It's a wonderful work and is a great first Cloud book for those who are not familiar with him.

The Encyclopedia is now in it's 6th edition.  There is a new HTML version with heading cross references linked to the heading.  Use it in conjunction with Chrome and PopVerse and you'll have have popup Scripture refs too.  The Way of Life Encyclopedia is also available as a SwordSearcher and BibleAnalyzer module.

The words in your first paragraph are spot on!  

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3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Stafford,

The answer that I am about to present may get me into "hot water" with my fellow "KJV-onlyists." 

Some background -- I myself DO hold by conviction to the King James translation as the one acceptable English translation on the market today for the English speaker.  I come to this position through an application of a more foundational position, for I am actually a "TR-onlyist" for the Greek New Testament and an "MT-onlyist" for the Hebrew Old Testament.

A thought for consideration -- Is the precise teaching of Psalm 12:6-7 to be applied unto the King James translation, which has existed for approximately 400 years; or is the precise teaching of Psalm 12:6-7 to be applied unto the original writings of God's Holy Word under the original inspiration of God the Holy Spirit in the original languages of Hebrew and Greek, which have existed since their original inspiring by the Holy Spirit for thousands of years?

I am not Bro. Stafford, but if I may answer? Psalm 12:6 is a stand-alone verse, a thought on the wonderfulness of God's word that has been inserted by David parenthetically into a stream of thought regarding a difficult matter. If we look at the whole context, would it not appear that Psalm 12:7 is actually referring to God's preservation of those oppressed and downtrodden living amongst the wicked as referred to in the chapter as a whole? I do believe, of course, that God does keep and preserve His word for ever. I'm just not sure that that is what is being referred to in that particular passage.

But again, I could be wrong. It did happen one time in the dark recesses of my distant past ... so I guess it could conceivably happen again one day. :)

 

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Check out Forever Settled by Jack Moorman. It'll answer just about any question preservation, transmission, manuscripts, and development of English versions that you can come up with. It's written from a solid KJV-only perspective. You can buy it on Amazon or I've attached the the PDF (you can google "forever settled pdf" if the upload didn't work).

Forever.Settled.pdf

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4 hours ago, TheSword said:

Check out Forever Settled by Jack Moorman. It'll answer just about any question preservation, transmission, manuscripts, and development of English versions that you can come up with. It's written from a solid KJV-only perspective. You can buy it on Amazon or I've attached the the PDF (you can google "forever settled pdf" if the upload didn't work).

Forever.Settled.pdf

The Sword,

Thank you very much. 'Forever Settled, by Jack Moorman is an excellent resource material on the manuscript evidence of the KJV. We appreciate the attached PDF file.

Brethren,

Brother Jack Moorman had this quote in his 'Forever Settled,' foreward that I think is worth bringing up. "I have also quoted heavily from "Believing Bible Study" by Edward F. Hills; "The Identity of the New Testament Text" by Wilbur N. Pickering; "Which Bible" by David Otis Fuller and many others."

David Otis Fuller wrote a follow-up book on, 'Which Bible?' called, 'True or False,' which I recommend.

Dean John william Burgeon, wrote some books on manuscript evidence that are also good resource material on the various manuscripts: 'The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels, Vol 1,' and 'The Revision Revised, A Refutation of Westcott and Hort's False Greek Text and Theory.'

 

Edited by Alan
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For anyone who may be interested: Moorman, Hills, Fuller, Burgon, Waite and many other books are available on the Fundamental Baptist Digital Library from Way of Life Literature.  This library has more than 155 books on KJV Defense, Baptist History, and Commentaries.  PM me with any questions you may have.

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Four hundred years and counting and the King James Bible is still the most trusted, reliable, and unchanging English translation. Even today, after all that time, any English speaker can, with little effort, understand it and use it for their faith and practice. Today's "scholars" treat God's word and work like cars and computer programs, outdated after two years and always having bugs and needing recalls. I don't need to know were it was 400+ years ago nor do I need to waste God's time looking for the latest and greatest. As one lady, Sweet Brown (of internet repute), was noted as saying; "Ain't nobody got time for that!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUv5sOaStnU)

Edited by John Young
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