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5 hours ago, brandplucked said:

Can you SHOW US A COPY of this complete and inerrant words of God Bible you say you believe in?  Yes or No?

 

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Kinney,

If you desire for me to physically SHOW you a copy this very instant, I cannot since we are conversing on the internet.  Therefore, I cannot SHOW you any physical book in my possession.

However, if you desire for me to answer whether I possess a physical copy of the Masoretic text in the Hebrew and of the Received text in the Greek, I do indeed possess a published copy of both.  These published copies are NOT the actual "parchment and ink" of these texts, but they are published copies thereof.  Just as your 1611 or 1769 King James translation is not the original "parchment and ink," but is a published copy thereof.

 

I agree in full with Bro. Scott's post, but if you need a visual... I'm not at home to take a picture, so I took screen grabs from what I do own.

 

KJV.bmp

MT.bmp

MT-TR Interlinear.jpg

TR.jpg

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Hi Scott. You tell us: " I DO with conviction believe that the Lord our God HAS preserved His Word with perfect purity for EVERY generation since those words have been originally given, preserved unto this very generation right NOW.  I DO believe with conviction (even if you do not believe me, and prefer to call me a "liar") that the Lord our God has so preserved His Holy Word in the Hebrew of the Masoretic text and the Greek of the Received text."

Scott, again, I do not believe you. It looks like you are more of a Greekophile than a King James Bible 
believer.  I am not ignorant of the textual issues. So, my question (which I think you are going to dodge) is WHICH "the" Greek Received text do you believe is the complete and inerrant New Testament that (according to you) is this "preserved  Word with perfect purity for EVERY generation since those words have been originally given, preserved unto this very generation right NOW."???

Was there an inerrant Bible in English before the King James Bible? If so, which one was it?

And Scott, there is no such animal as "the" Received Text.  


 

 

The Textus Receptus has had over 25 revisions, all varying from one another. No absolute definition of the TR actually exists...

 

A few of these revisions are:

 

1516 - Erasmus' first edition

 

1519 - Erasmus' second edition - More than 400 changes from the first edition

 

1522 - Erasmus' third edition - More than 100 changes from his second edition

 

1527 - Erasmus' fourth edition - More than 100 alterations of the third edition, 90 of them in Revelation

 

1546 - Stephanus's first edition

 

1549 - Stephanus's second edition - more than 60 changes from the Stephanus's first edition

 

1550 - Stephanus's third edition - Includes varient readings in the margins

 

1551 - Stephanus's fourth edition - The first time the text is divided into numbered verses

 

1565-1604 - Beza's eleven editions - Minor changes in Stephanus's text. All of Beza's editions vary somewhat from Stephanus's and from each other 

 

1624 Elziver edition  - You can see it online here - https://www.bible.com/bible/182/mat.1.tr1624

 

1633 - Elziver's second edition - First called the Textus Receptus (22 years after the publication of the KJV)

 

1650 - Elziver's third edition - Differs from the second edition in about 287 places

 

In addition, the TR that is used today (published by the Trinitarian Bible Society) is not identical to any of the references above, but is an "eclectic" text that draws its readings from different sources. The modern day TR that underlies the King James Bible can be called “a variety of the Textus Receptus”  

 



Scott, you can show us a copy of what you say is this inerrant Bible you believe in because all these things in their various forms are on the internet. 

I can show you a copy of my inerrant Bible. You can see it here at this site


https://www.biblegateway.com
 

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43 minutes ago, TheSword said:

 

 

I agree in full with Bro. Scott's post, but if you need a visual... I'm not at home to take a picture, so I took screen grabs from what I do own.

 

KJV.bmp

MT.bmp

MT-TR Interlinear.jpg

TR.jpg

Hi Sword. What you have there in "the" Hebrew is Jay P. Green's own, personal translation.  Jay Green did NOT believe several readings in the particular TR that underlies the KJB were inspired Scripture. He did not believe 1 John 5:7 was inspired.

How does, not Green, but the Hebrew text you have there read in Psalms 22:16 where the KJB says "they pierced my hands and my feet"?  

How do you reconcile the two different ages of Jehoiachin in the Hebrew text?

How Old Was Jehoiachin, 8 or 18?

2 Chronicles 36:9 KJB  (ESV 2001 edition) - "Jehoiachin was EIGHT years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days."

2 Kings 24:8 KJB"Jehoiachin was EIGHTEEN years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months."

And regarding that Greek copy you show here, it looks like it is the Scrivener text of 1894, right?

Are you aware that NO Bible in any language and NO other Greek New Testament read the same way in many places before 1894?  Do you know how Scrivener came up with his Greek text?

So, what exactly was this " preserved  Word with perfect purity for EVERY generation since those words have been originally given, preserved unto this very generation right NOW." BEFORE this particular Greek text by Scrivener that you show us here?
 
Edited by brandplucked
I misspelled a word.

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42 minutes ago, brandplucked said:

Hi Scott. You tell us: " I DO with conviction believe that the Lord our God HAS preserved His Word with perfect purity for EVERY generation since those words have been originally given, preserved unto this very generation right NOW.  I DO believe with conviction (even if you do not believe me, and prefer to call me a "liar") that the Lord our God has so preserved His Holy Word in the Hebrew of the Masoretic text and the Greek of the Received text."

Scott, again, I do not believe you. It looks like you are more of a Greekophile than a King James Bible 
believer.  I am not ignorant of the textual issues. So, my question (which I think you are going to dodge) . . . . (Emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Ah, yes, let us talk about "dodging questions." In an above posting I asked of you seven questions (here).  Have you yourself answered those questions, or have you yourself "dodged" them?  Well, you yourself have not provided a single word of answer to those seven questions; therefore, it appears that "dodging" IS INDEED your manner of response.

It is YOUR TURN to answer some questions, not mine.  What answers do you give?

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40 minutes ago, brandplucked said:

Hi Sword. What you have there in "the" Hebrew is Jay P. Green's own, personal translation.  Jay Green did NOT believe several readings in the particular TR that underlies the KJB were inspired Scripture. He did not believe 1 John 5:7 was inspired. 

I don't use it for Green's translation, I use it for the text and parse it myself along with the KJV rendering, that's why I included a picture of a KJV for you. You'll also notice I included non-interlinear copy of the MT and TR as well. You're using special pleading and a loaded question to assert that I'm reading and supporting a Jay P. Green version of the Bible.

51 minutes ago, brandplucked said:

How does, not Green, but the Hebrew text you have there read in Psalms 22:16 where the KJB says "they pierced my hands and my feet"?  

Do you read Hebrew? If not, there's no point getting into this discussion.

52 minutes ago, brandplucked said:

How do you reconcile the two different ages of Jehoiachin in the Hebrew text?

How Old Was Jehoiachin, 8 or 18?

2 Chronicles 36:9 KJB  (ESV 2001 edition) - "Jehoiachin was EIGHT years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days."

2 Kings 24:8 KJB"Jehoiachin was EIGHTEEN years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months."

Co-regency. It was the common practice in Judah to ensure the desired succession.

1 hour ago, brandplucked said:

And regarding that Greek copy you show here, it looks like it is the Scrivener text of 1894, right?

Yes, which has no substantive differences from the Beza 1598, Stephens 1550, Erasmus 1527/1535, and Complutensian Polyglot used in KJV translation.

1 hour ago, brandplucked said:

Are you aware that NO Bible in any language and NO other Greek New Testament read the same way in many places before 1894?  Do you know how Scrivener came up with his Greek text? 

Question 1: What exactly do you mean by that?

Question 2: Yes.

1 hour ago, brandplucked said:

So, what exactly was this " preserved  Word with perfect purity for EVERY generation since those words have been originally given, preserved unto this very generation right NOW." BEFORE this particular Greek text by Scrivener that you show us here?

I get the notion you're attempting to walk this back to the point that the originals and many of the early copies are no longer in existence. Am I correct in understanding your overall point?

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Can we stop this here please?  The reason for this thread was to be able to recommend one or two books that explain the issue to the average person.  This is going far beyond that spectrum and into a level that the common person, including myself, cannot process.  It seems that this is devolving into accusations and a competition and I don't believe it to be edifying or otherwise helpful.

The following is a list of books that were recommended in earlier posts:

  • “The Glorious History of the English Bible” by David Cloud
  • “Forever Settled” by Jack Moorman
  • “Believing Bible Study” by Edward F. Hills
  • “The Identity of the New Testament Text” by Wilbur N. Pickering
  • “Which Bible” by David Otis Fuller
  • “True or False” by David Otis Fuller
  • “The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels” by DJW Burgeon
  • “The Revision Revised, A Refutation of Wescott and Hort’s False Greek Text and Theory” by DJW Burgeon.

Thank you for the above recommendations.   It would now be my preference that we close this thread. @Salyan

Edited by Brother Stafford

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