DaveW

MacArthur

299 posts in this topic

23 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Perhaps I haven't studied it enough, but those verses in 1 Peter tell me that...

The second person of the Godhead was foreordained to...

  • be the Christ/Messiah
  • be the lamb of God; whereby, he (the second person of the Godhead) would "taste death for every man" and be the sacrifice for man's sins.

Considering that 1 Peter 1:17-21 is actually one sentence, it "appears" that the main thrust of the "sentence" seems to focus upon his salvific work...at least at this point, that's how it appears to me. :)

So, to answer the question...

As I read over the question...I find myself reading back over it...and re-reading it...and going back over it...and it's giving me a brain-meltdown. Perhaps this is where a lot of those nifty Calvinist words come from? When you have a brain-meltdown, create a word for it. LOLOLOL!

...and all I can offer is this based on my own understanding...

The second person of the Godhead was foreordained to be the Christ and lamb of God (and all that those two titles entail).

...and I'm sticking with that answer.

Speaking as Pastor Scott Markle, the opponent of Calvinism,

Indeed, it is an interesting subject to ponder in what manner the eternal Son of God was "foreordained" (Greek verb, "proginosko") as the Christ, the sacrificial Lamb of God, as per 1 Peter 1:18-21.

However, in the debate against Calvinistic doctrine, the word "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 can create a significant difficulty for the non-Calvinist; for it would provide evidence that the Greek verb "proginosko" (which is the same Greek verb that is translated as "foreknow" in Romans 8:29) can carry the meaning of "foreordained" decisionally, as opposed to simply "foreknown" informationally, or even "foreloved" relationally.  As such, the use of the same Greek verb in Romans 8:29, translated "foreknow," could then mean "foreordained decisionally in Romans 8;29 also.  How then does the non-Calvinist deal with this problem?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Login or register for removal of this advertisement.

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Speaking as Pastor Scott Markle, the opponent of Calvinism,

Indeed, it is an interesting subject to ponder in what manner the eternal Son of God was "foreordained" (Greek verb, "proginosko") as the Christ, the sacrificial Lamb of God, as per 1 Peter 1:18-21.

However, in the debate against Calvinistic doctrine, the word "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 can create a significant difficulty for the non-Calvinist; for it would provide evidence that the Greek verb "proginosko" (which is the same Greek verb that is translated as "foreknow" in Romans 8:29) can carry the meaning of "foreordained" decisionally, as opposed to simply "foreknown" informationally, or even "foreloved" relationally.  As such, the use of the same Greek verb in Romans 8:29, translated "foreknow," could then mean "foreordained decisionally in Romans 8;29 also.  How then does the non-Calvinist deal with this problem?

Hold on...brain-meltdown in progress and I must needs think of a new word. :)

It's all just a matter of what it actually means...which to me, and from what I gather...it means "to KNOW beforehand. So there is no problem or predicament for me a.k.a. a non-Calvinist...

From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What if it simply means, Ones he has "known" "before".........

Rom 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to beconformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

........as in "knew" them in salvation.

Mat 7:23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

.......so, the moment you get saved, God "predestinates" you to be comformed to His image? No? Just a thought.

No Nicolaitans likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

That's what it means...to KNOW BEFOREHAND.

It doesn't mean...to CHOOSE BEFOREHAND.

God knew who would and wouldn't be saved from eternity past. Those (whom he knew would be saved) have been predestinated for some things which result from them being saved.

Edited by No Nicolaitans
removed a "s"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

That's what it means...to KNOW BEFOREHAND.

It doesn't mean...to CHOOSE BEFOREHAND.

God knew who would and wouldn't be saved from eternity past. Those (whom he knew would be saved) have been predestinated for some things which result from them being saved.

Yet the English word "foreordained" (found in the King James translation ONLY in 1 Peter 1:20, as the translation for the Greek verb "proginosko")  DOES indeed mean -- "to ordain beforehand; predestinate."

And the English word "ordain" means -- "1) to put in order, arrange, prepare; 2.a) to decree, order, establish, enact; 2.b) to predetermine, predestinate; 3) to invest with the functions or office of a minister, priest, or rabbi."

So then, CAN the Greek verb "proginosko" mean "to foreordain," that is -- "to before arrange; to before decree; to predetermine; to predestinate"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet the English word "foreordained" (found in the King James translation ONLY in 1 Peter 1:20, as the translation for the Greek verb "proginosko")  DOES indeed mean -- "to ordain beforehand; predestinate."

And the English word "ordain" means -- "1) to put in order, arrange, prepare; 2.a) to decree, order, establish, enact; 2.b) to predetermine, predestinate; 3) to invest with the functions or office of a minister, priest, or rabbi."

So then, CAN the Greek verb "proginosko" mean "to foreordain," that is -- "to before arrange; to before decree; to predetermine; to predestinate"?

I thought we were discussing the word "foreKNOW"??

 

First of all, the word origins of "ordain" simply mean "order" as in "set in order". If you want to see an example of another, the Greek word translated "ordained", in Acts 13:48,, is also translated "addicted" in another place in the NT. When you're "addicted" to something, your life is "set in order" and "established" toward that thing you're addicted to. Know what I'm saying? And I strongly suspect the "reformed" movement, early on, had great influence on how this English word has been corrupted. Now, ordain is mainly used to refer to a priest or preacher's "ordination" and little else. And I don't hardly think it meant "predestinate".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet the English word "foreordained" (found in the King James translation ONLY in 1 Peter 1:20, as the translation for the Greek verb "proginosko")  DOES indeed mean -- "to ordain beforehand; predestinate."

And the English word "ordain" means -- "1) to put in order, arrange, prepare; 2.a) to decree, order, establish, enact; 2.b) to predetermine, predestinate; 3) to invest with the functions or office of a minister, priest, or rabbi."

So then, CAN the Greek verb "proginosko" mean "to foreordain," that is -- "to before arrange; to before decree; to predetermine; to predestinate"?

Well, if I were really going to delve further into this (of which I don't have time right now), these are the steps that I probably would take...

  1. I would try to find out what the English word "ordain" (or foreordain if possible) meant in the 1600s...or as close to the 1600s as possible.
  2. I would then look at the other scriptural instances of the Greek word that is translated as "foreordained" here...to see their use(s) and context(s).
  3. Then I'd probably look at what the Greek word "ordain(ed)" means.
  4. Then I'd look at what context its various uses are.
  5. Then with that knowledge, I'd again look at the the verse in question.

Whether I do all of that, I don't know. Gotta go...

Hope the Lord gives you a great day!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please consider that the english word is more than sufficient (as always IMO). Ordained in any tense or usage requires a volunteer to agree to it. It never means nor implies against the will of an individual. God simply knows who all the voluntary believers are throughout history who are ordained to everlasting life.

The same explanation goes for the Lord Jesus Christ who the Father always knew would willingly be our Savior.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

I thought we were discussing the word "foreKNOW"??

Brother Wayne,

My posting as follows:

39 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet the English word "foreordained" (found in the King James translation ONLY in 1 Peter 1:20, as the translation for the Greek verb "proginosko")  DOES indeed mean -- "to ordain beforehand; predestinate."

And the English word "ordain" means -- "1) to put in order, arrange, prepare; 2.a) to decree, order, establish, enact; 2.b) to predetermine, predestinate; 3) to invest with the functions or office of a minister, priest, or rabbi."

So then, CAN the Greek verb "proginosko" mean "to foreordain," that is -- "to before arrange; to before decree; to predetermine; to predestinate"?

Was given in relation to my earlier posting as follows:

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Speaking as Pastor Scott Markle, the opponent of Calvinism,

Indeed, it is an interesting subject to ponder in what manner the eternal Son of God was "foreordained" (Greek verb, "proginosko") as the Christ, the sacrificial Lamb of God, as per 1 Peter 1:18-21.

However, in the debate against Calvinistic doctrine, the word "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 can create a significant difficulty for the non-Calvinist; for it would provide evidence that the Greek verb "proginosko" (which is the same Greek verb that is translated as "foreknow" in Romans 8:29) can carry the meaning of "foreordained" decisionally, as opposed to simply "foreknown" informationally, or even "foreloved" relationally.  As such, the use of the same Greek verb in Romans 8:29, translated "foreknow," could then mean "foreordained decisionally in Romans 8;29 also.  How then does the non-Calvinist deal with this problem?

There is no doubt that a Calvinist will use the King James translation's usage of the English word "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 as a  translation for the Greek verb "proginosko" to argue that the Greek verb "proginosko" (which is also that found in Romans 8:29) CAN mean "predestinated; pre-chosen."  So then, how do we non-Calvinist's respond with Biblical validity unto this argument?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

while we are speaking about the misuse of words,  Who first used the word witness incorrectly as in "I am going to witness to him/her".  Or "I have been witnessing to so and so?"

 

 

Edited by Invicta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't a witness someone who provides testimony based upon personal knowledge? If so, then to witness to someone is to give testimonial to the truth of the gospel. I honestly don't see its misuse.

Acts 26:22-23

 22  Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

 23  That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, wretched said:

Please consider that the english word is more than sufficient (as always IMO). Ordained in any tense or usage requires a volunteer to agree to it. It never means nor implies against the will of an individual. God simply knows who all the voluntary believers are throughout history who are ordained to everlasting life.

The same explanation goes for the Lord Jesus Christ who the Father always knew would willingly be our Savior.

wretched,

This is something that I still struggle with. I know that you and I have had our differences in the past, but believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for you. I find your down-to-earth and blunt posts to be both refreshing and a blessing (at times...LOL!). As I've said before, I most certainly believe that if all one has is the KJV, that's all they need. At the same time, I also believe that if one has access to "other" study aides, they are of certain benefit. At this point in my Christian walk, I rely first and foremost upon the KJV. My first move (when encountering something that I feel deserves more study) is to try to see what "something" meant in the 1600's. If that doesn't "pan out", I will research the Greek/Hebrew. 

I hope the Lord gives you a blessed day dear brother!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, No Nicolaitans said:

wretched,

This is something that I still struggle with. I know that you and I have had our differences in the past, but believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for you. I find your down-to-earth and blunt posts to be both refreshing and a blessing (at times...LOL!). As I've said before, I most certainly believe that if all one has is the KJV, that's all they need. At the same time, I also believe that if one has access to "other" study aides, they are of certain benefit. At this point in my Christian walk, I rely first and foremost upon the KJV. My first move (when encountering something that I feel deserves more study) is to try to see what "something" meant in the 1600's. If that doesn't "pan out", I will research the Greek/Hebrew. 

I hope the Lord gives you a blessed day dear brother!

Understood brother and your Christlike attitude is always a blessing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wretched said:

Understood brother and your Christlike attitude is always a blessing!

I'd stinkin' hug you if I could!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pastor Scott Markle likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I'd stinkin' hug you if I could!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Honesty though NN, I am guessing you don't feel Christ-like on this forum sometimes when having to re-explain things to Calvinists, etc.. but you come across as patient and kind and that is what counts.

I myself, am still working on it with the Spirit :4_2_109v:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, wretched said:

Understood brother and your Christlike attitude is always a blessing!

10 minutes ago, wretched said:

Honesty though NN, I am guessing you don't feel Christ-like on this forum sometimes when having to re-explain things to Calvinists, etc.. but you come across as patient and kind and that is what counts.

I wish to express my agreement with Brother "Wretched" on this point.

 

wretched and No Nicolaitans like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, wretched said:

Honesty though NN, I am guessing you don't feel Christ-like on this forum sometimes when having to re-explain things to Calvinists, etc.. but you come across as patient and kind and that is what counts.

I myself, am still working on it with the Spirit :4_2_109v:

 

2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I wish to express my agreement with Brother "Wretched" on this point.

 

Who? Me?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As the song goes..."He's still working on me..."

heartstrings likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

 

Who? Me?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As the song goes..."He's still working on me..."

.....how loving and patient He MUST be.......... :)

No Nicolaitans likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/04/2017 at 2:19 AM, No Nicolaitans said:

Isn't a witness someone who provides testimony based upon personal knowledge? If so, then to witness to someone is to give testimonial to the truth of the gospel. I honestly don't see its misuse.

Acts 26:22-23

 22  Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

 23  That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Would seem so considering the verse you quoted.  But witness is to see or experience something and to testifie is to bear witness, I believe.

No Nicolaitans likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Would seem so considering the verse you quoted.  But witness is to see or experience something and to testifie is to bear witness, I believe.

My personal take on it is that "witness" applies to both seeing/experiencing something...and...to testify about something. For example...

To testify...

Acts 4:33
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
 

To see/experience something...

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
 

heartstrings likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To "be a witness" is to live for Jesus before the world. To "witness" is to testify of Him verbally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello to all,

I have had ample time to think and pray while enjoying vacation and during this time I have realized that I have too many irons in the fire.  I do want to pursue Brother Scott and I's conversation but feel it is counter productive concerning other things I need to get done.  It is garden time, my book beckons and speaking invitations increase this time of year and it seems I will need to take a part time job if my wife and I wish to continue traveling on occasion. 

 

I ask for your forgiveness, but I will lay aside the topic of election for a couple of months and perhaps reconnect with Brother Scott later in the summer.  I will continue to be active on the forum but only every few days.

 

 

Pastor Scott Markle likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 John 4

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

I just can't see how a man can love people, and tell them that the God of the Bible may or may not love them and may or may not have died for them. I don't see how his WORDS can TRULY confess the Jesus Christ of John 3:16 while his underlying teachings say otherwise.

Edited by heartstrings
Jim_Alaska likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My "Like" above is for Bro. Wayne's comments, not for the video.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now