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Good article by Pastor Baldwin


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#1 IM4given

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 10:49 AM

:thumb

He is very correct in that only a very small remnant see what is going on and respond to the challenge. The rest either don't care or are willing to go along to get along or hold their noses and support the supposed "lesser evils" anyway.


I do not think there are enough of us crazy fruit cake whack-job nut bags left to win this election John, but I hear what Pastor Baldwin is saying! :clap: :amen: and :amen:

#2 tired

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 10:12 PM

That is how bad the country has got. When the majority of "evangelicals" and other psuedo christian groups think when they hear candidates talk about the constitution they call them kooks. We are not the rebels they are.

#3 speerjp1

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 02:07 PM

God's word is clear that God himself ordains the government and turns it in the ways that he sees fit for his purposes.

This statement isn't true either.
Hos 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.


My statement is true and is based on the principles taught throughout God's word. Your text is obviously an exceptional situation. This world is not our home. We're just pilgrims and strangers. I refuse to be entangled in it as much as possible.

#4 CowboyPreacher

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 03:43 PM

God's word is clear that God himself ordains the government and turns it in the ways that he sees fit for his purposes.

This statement isn't true either.
Hos 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.


My statement is true and is based on the principles taught throughout God's word. Your text is obviously an exceptional situation. This world is not our home. We're just pilgrims and strangers. I refuse to be entangled in it as much as possible.

It's not my text it's God's word and it can't be that exceptional since all you have to do is read a little world history to figure out how many ungodly Gov'ts have been established.

C

#5 speerjp1

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 04:15 PM

God's word is clear that God himself ordains the government and turns it in the ways that he sees fit for his purposes.

This statement isn't true either.
Hos 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.


My statement is true and is based on the principles taught throughout God's word. Your text is obviously an exceptional situation. This world is not our home. We're just pilgrims and strangers. I refuse to be entangled in it as much as possible.

It's not my text it's God's word and it can't be that exceptional since all you have to do is read a little world history to figure out how many ungodly Gov'ts have been established.

C


I don't have to go any further than the Bible, though, to see an example of Christians being told to submit to one of the worst most tyrannical and imperial governments that has ever existed.

We are Christians, not anarchists.

#6 speerjp1

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 08:06 AM

That is a pretty good article.

Unfortunately "Pastor" Baldwin has fallen for the deception that our primary goal as Christians is political action.

That is putting the cart WAY before the horse.

Had churches not been perpetually dropping the ball for the past 100 years, we might not be in the position we are in today as a nation.

(However, even if churches had not dropped the ball, I personally believe the world and our country in particular would be heading exactly where it is heading right now. God exercises much more sovereign control over governments than he does individuals. I believe we are getting close to Christ's return and the exposing of the man of sin. It only makes sense that the world would be prepared for such events.)

He gave us so many commands in scripture, none of which included such dedication to political action.

Christ himself nor his disciples led any kind of political movement in their day.

We have no examples in the Bible of any Christians putting political action before fulfilling the great commission.

Christians for centuries have been at the mercy of despotic governments and to this day many still live in danger of losing their lives for their beliefs. It is not detrimental to true Christianity to be under the thumb of tyrants.

America is full of bloated churches that, like the church in Jerusalem had, have ceased to go into all the world and even their own communities.

Why should we expect God to continue blessing us with freedoms of which most churches do not take advantage?

Besides, it's not the end of the world....

Or is it? :cooldude:

Spoiler


#7 CowboyPreacher

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 06:53 AM

Romans 12:17-21
1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
I don't believe this is just talking about monetary but defending my family. Would you allow a man to come into your house and rape your wife or kids. If you would I believe this verse is calling you an infidel.

WOW, Talk about taking the scripture out of context. That whole section of scripture is talking about providing for widows.
I wouldn't allow a man to come into my house and do anything to my family but not because of that verse.

C

#8 tired

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 02:47 AM

Romans 12:17-21
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
To me this passage shows me that we should not be violent towards anyone, but verse 18 pretty much tells me that we have to defend our self if we have no other choice. I would deal violently if someone tried to hurt my family.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
I don't believe this is just talking about monetary but defending my family. Would you allow a man to come into your house and rape your wife or kids. If you would I believe this verse is calling you an infidel.

Now if we are being persecuted or warred on for our belief in Jesus than we should not fight back. The martyrs didn't fight they died preaching to their evil captors.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake .
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you

There is nothing wrong with standing against evil people or governments. Nothing wrong with contending for the faith. The bible says to earnestly contend. We cannot just sit around and say hey I can't get involved. I think the main problem with this country is not the evil people but the apathetic church. The people are being entertained and coddled. They are not being taught from the pulpit how to witness, study the bible, repent of sin. They are being taught how to live their best life now and how to get rich, and don't judge and leave all other christians alone.


1 Cor 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 11:53 PM

Jesus rebuked Peter for using violence so how can we as followers support using violence. No one in NT times used violence many died without resisting. Why would you agree with someone who invokes violence? I struggle with that.

#10 speerjp1

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 09:22 AM


I don't have to go any further than the Bible, though, to see an example of Christians being told to submit to one of the worst most tyrannical and imperial governments that has ever existed.

We are Christians, not anarchists.

And I go to the scriptures and see the very clear picture of those who defied Gov't. to be Christian.

C


Defying the government does not make one a Christian.

I am a Christian. If the government has a problem with my witnessing, living right, going to church, helping in the community, or any other obligation I have as a Christian, then they will just have to lock me up or kill me like they've done in past governments.

However, I refuse to be put to death for being an anarchist or "social activist." I believe we have a higher calling than to merely push for social change in a world full of people who have rejected Christ and are one their way to hell. If I die for my beliefs, it will be my belief and hope in God and Jesus Christ and not my belief or hope in a anthropocentric "Christian government."

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:58 PM

And I go to the scriptures and see the very clear picture of those who defied Gov't. to be Christian.



:amen: :goodpost: Yes---when the government was corrupt. They certainly did. :thumb

#12 CowboyPreacher

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:32 PM

I don't have to go any further than the Bible, though, to see an example of Christians being told to submit to one of the worst most tyrannical and imperial governments that has ever existed.

We are Christians, not anarchists.

And I go to the scriptures and see the very clear picture of those who defied Gov't. to be Christian.

C

#13 John81

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 10:27 PM

That is how bad the country has got. When the majority of "evangelicals" and other psuedo christian groups think when they hear candidates talk about the constitution they call them kooks. We are not the rebels they are.


That's fact!!!

Just as Christians, true Christians, are to abide by the Word of God, so elected officials are to abide by the Constitution. When they fail to do so they are breaking the law and attacking the Constitution! Why vote for liars? If they refuse to abide by the Constitution yet they take an oath saying they will abide by the Constitution they are outright liars and Scripture is clear as to the seriousness of the sin of telling a lie.

#14 CowboyPreacher

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 11:07 AM

God's word is clear that God himself ordains the government and turns it in the ways that he sees fit for his purposes.

This statement isn't true either.
Hos 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

#15 CowboyPreacher

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 11:02 AM

According to the Bible, it is always true. I do not find any exceptions to the rule in God's word. Just because a bunch of men were allowed by God to come together and form such a union, doesn't mean that the commands and teachings of God's word on the issue of human government were changed just for us American Christians.

Our government was allowed to be in existence as it was only by the will of God for a purpose.

Do I think it is right that it has become what it has today? No.

Do I vote and put up yard signs and attend rallies and try to convince people of the right way to vote? Yes (but it doesn't consume my every waking hour or make me doubt God's wisdom when a God-hater makes it to the White House).

Do I do this as though it is the only hope for the world? No way.

(Please do not make this a generational issue: it's not this generations fault we are where we are. :thumb)

You said

The Bible nowhere teaches that we are responsible as stewards for our government.

But that's not true under this form of gov't compared to other forms, this form of gov't is specific to the people having the power. I didn't say it was this generations fault, I said it was a misconception of this generation. For the most part this generation doesn't know what form of gov't they are supposed to have. It is however this generation responsibility to set it right, just like it was the last generations responsibility, and the one before that. And if you want biblical principal for that just read through Judges, every generation had the chance to do right and follow God.

C

#16 speerjp1

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 09:58 AM

That would be true under most forms of Government [ :puzzled: ], dictatorships, monarchies, theocracies, etc.. but under our form of Gov't which is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, that doesn't hold true. The first three words of the Constitution are "We the People", and that is were the responsibility of Gov't is in this country, it's in the people. This is one of the great misconceptions of this generation is that the gov't is our master, when in fact those people that represent us are our servants. And even the bible is clear on how a servant should honor his master, and I don't see any of our current politicians honoring the people they represent.

C


According to the Bible, it is always true. I do not find any exceptions to the rule in God's word. Just because a bunch of men were allowed by God to come together and form such a union, doesn't mean that the commands and teachings of God's word on the issue of human government were changed just for us American Christians.

Our government was allowed to be in existence as it was only by the will of God for a purpose.

Do I think it is right that it has become what it has today? No.

Do I vote and put up yard signs and attend rallies and try to convince people of the right way to vote? Yes (but it doesn't consume my every waking hour or make me doubt God's wisdom when a God-hater makes it to the White House).

Do I do this as though it is the only hope for the world? No way.

(Please do not make this a generational issue: it's not this generations fault we are where we are. :thumb)

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 09:54 AM

The first three words of the Constitution are "We the People", and that is were the responsibility of Gov't is in this country, it's in the people. This is one of the great misconceptions of this generation is that the gov't is our master, when in fact those people that represent us are our servants. And even the bible is clear on how a servant should honor his master, and I don't see any of our current politicians honoring the people they represent.



:amen: :goodpost: CowboyPreacher. :thumb

The government acts like they own us rather than serve us. Various examples are rises gas prices, food prices, and the "foreclosesure" of homes all over the country. And, the president tells the people that this is the fault of the homeowner (overspending, not being able to budget properly, etc.) :lol :roll Where has he been? It amazes me that the property taxes keep going up---yet the value of one's home keeps going down. :puzzled: America's leaders have been acting like pharisees, lately---rather than the servants they were created to be for the American public. JMHO.

#18 CowboyPreacher

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 09:37 AM

We are to be stewards of all God has provided, we are responsible for the government that we have. The best way to influence the outcome, is to witness Christ and have them sit under good biblical preaching. As long as priorities are correct, nothing is wrong with political activity.


The Bible nowhere teaches that we are responsible as stewards for our government. We are to obey (as long as they do not tell us to do or not do unBiblical things). God's word is clear that God himself ordains the government and turns it in the ways that he sees fit for his purposes.

I do not think there is anything wrong with political involvement, but we have to keep it in its place.

"Pastor" Baldwin has allowed many politicians use his pulpit as a stump. He uses his own pulpit to stump. That is not given anywhere in God's word as a use of God's house or a gathering of God's people.

That would be true under most forms of Government, dictatorships, monarchies, theocracies, etc.. but under our form of Gov't which is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, that doesn't hold true. The first three words of the Constitution are "We the People", and that is were the responsibility of Gov't is in this country, it's in the people. This is one of the great misconceptions of this generation is that the gov't is our master, when in fact those people that represent us are our servants. And even the bible is clear on how a servant should honor his master, and I don't see any of our current politicians honoring the people they represent.

C

#19 speerjp1

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 08:35 AM

We are to be stewards of all God has provided, we are responsible for the government that we have. The best way to influence the outcome, is to witness Christ and have them sit under good biblical preaching. As long as priorities are correct, nothing is wrong with political activity.


The Bible nowhere teaches that we are responsible as stewards for our government. We are to obey (as long as they do not tell us to do or not do unBiblical things). God's word is clear that God himself ordains the government and turns it in the ways that he sees fit for his purposes.

I do not think there is anything wrong with political involvement, but we have to keep it in its place.

"Pastor" Baldwin has allowed many politicians use his pulpit as a stump. He uses his own pulpit to stump. That is not given anywhere in God's word as a use of God's house or a gathering of God's people.

#20 tired

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 11:08 PM

I just thought it was a refreshing article from a person with political agenda.




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