I was saved on May 11, 1986 at the Berean Baptist Church. I am a sign artist/graphics designer by trade. http://www.webbsignworks.com. My family and I play acoustic gospel music and raise sheep on our farm in NW Florida.
Group*Independent Fundamental Baptist
Member TitleHe shall feed his flock like a shepherd....
I didn't end up going to the Tue. night Bible study at their house (I was sick) and I haven't been back to the church. I sent them a couple emails but they haven't responded so I am taking it in a way that I was given a way out, if that makes sense. However, I did visit a church tonight that a friend recommended and guess what they talked about??? Eternal security!!! :-) And in the children's class they are studying on choosing wise words and having them memorize Proverbs 15:1 which we've been currently teaching our kids at home. Coincidence? I don't think so.
To answer the OP, and not throw gas on the fire of doctrinal discussion...
I was raised in an IFB church by my IFB preacher Dad my whole life, saved at the age of 5 and surrendered to preach at 14. I have been in the ministry for twenty years, many of those years as a missionary, a pastor or an assistant pastor. I tell you this only to define and illustrate that I have been on both sides of the pulpit extensively. Through my experience ... and that's all it is, I would recommend you quietly find a church to fellowship with that agrees with you fully on the fundamentals. And my Sister, may I gently say that continuing to Bible Study with those who you are unable to worship with will not turn out to be...profitable? For either of you. The christian life is hard enough in these last days without you taking on a burden God has neither called nor asked you to carry. A pastor and his wife will believe what they have chosen to believe, and I'm pretty sure God does not call upon you to break down that wall.
It is just my experience, not scripture, but my experience has been hard won through many tears and scars. If it helps you, I rejoice.
P.S. I would like to reiterate my above statement. My goal is not to teach anyone but to discuss and determine in my own mind what I believe scripture has to say on this topic. Also, I do not wish, at anytime, for myself or my children to be taught otherwise if this topic comes up in some later sermon.
Also, the number of popular teachers in a certain theology does not make it true. There are a number of popular preachers who hold to Calvinism, and people basically get the theology by listening to them or reading their books, not from the Bible. We need to throw out our creeds and have the Bible as the ONLY authority.
I saw the opposite. My father played sometimes for our church, then we got a progression of very good pianists and my Dad was sidestepped.
A few years later we ran out of excellent pianists and instead of asking my dad to return to the piano, a young lady was asked to play. She was not very good at playing hymns although she was not a bad pianist.
A few people were offended for my Dad but he didn't seem to care.
She now is a wonderful servant in another church, having been their principle pianist and now very good hymn player for many years.
My dad is happy serving in other ways.
Sometimes it is important for someone other than the "best" person to do a ministry......
My previous thread I started entitled "Things Are Often Not As They Seem" got me thinking about another story from years ago at my church.
We had a church member that had been attending regularly for over 10 years. This person never participated in any music. It was assumed he simply was self-conscious about his singing voice and reluctant to let anyone hear him. One day, because of a host of issues all happening at once, we were left without a single one of our 4 pianists available for a church service, during revival week of all times. We were left to sing "acapella" for the congregational and choir singing. Suddenly this gentleman stood up and walked up to the piano and with "over-the-top" professional quality began playing the most beautiful hymn arrangements you will ever hear. Needless to say, we were all left, (from the Pastor on down to his closest friends) totally astonished and dumbfounded. He never entertained guests at his home in the woods, so no one even guessed he even owned a piano.
When we asked for an explanation, this is what we got:
Over 30 years ago I was a fresh piano graduate from Juliard School of Music. I got saved and started attending a Baptist Church who had a very talented, yet inexperienced teen, as their only piano player. I started playing specials for them from time to time, which little by little progressed into me playing the church prelude music, playing the offeratory, and then playing during the invitation. I essentially was given the entire piano music ministry. Little did any of us know, the music ministry was the only glue that was holding a very troubled teen girl together, and when that was taken away from her by me, she took her own life. My soul has been vexed daily for over 30 years now and I have not been able to play in a church service for over 30 years, or even let anyone know that I even know a keyboard from the pedals. He had never been able to forgive himself.
I can almost guarantee you that in every congregation there are members with something in their past that vexes their soul, and you would never guess it by looking at them. You also never know just how important even the smallest "ministry" contribution is to that person. Please make sure you thank, either in person, by letter, or even a gift, EVERYONE who does even the smallest thing in your church. Thank the bus driver and workers, the Sunday School teachers, the sound man (sorry I had to put that in for me the sound man), the person(s) who cleans the church, the child who straightens the hymn books after service, the doorman at the church entrance, the teens who go into the parking lot on rainy days (a lot in Oregon) with umbrellas to escort members into church, any ministry or blessing at all because you never know just how important that is to the person doing it.
John Smyth is a very poor example, as he migrated to Mennonite before he died. His path took him from Anglican to Se-Baptist, to Mennonite. As an IFB, my doctrinal beliefs don't come from him, but rather from scripture. Rightly divided scripture, not scripture being put up to twist into something that becomes a pet argument. Such as original sin.
Winman, that's enough with your mockery. If you can't discuss something without resorting to childish thrusts, then remain silent. Scripture you have provided does not, in fact, prove your thesis that people are not born with sin.
You can proclaim all you want that Romans 5:12 teaches only death as a result of sin, but you are dead wrong. "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world [sin may have originated with the devil, but scripture very clearly says that it came into this world by one man...and context shows that one man to be Adam], and death by sin [obviously this means that death now comes as a result of sin in the world]; and so death passed upon all men [simply meaning as a result of the sin in the world, death is something all people inherit], for that all have sinned." Anyone who understands plain english can see that this prepositional phrase refers to the fact that death has come upon all for the reason that all have sinned. That's the plain teaching of scripture.
You, Winman, have posted a few things that in actuality cause doubt upon the deity of Christ. You can claim that you haven't, but that is the effect of some of the things that you have said. Now, here is your cease and desist order. If you want to discuss and fellowship, great. But stop introducing your blatantly perverted doctrines. If you insist on continuing - even in arguing with this post - you will be banned. But unlike BB, it won't be just for a month.
Jesus Christ was born sinless. That is not going to be open to argument. He is God. He was God before He became flesh. Gen. 3:15 clearly tells us that He would be born of the seed of the woman. Physically impossible since women do not have seed, but with God all things are impossible. He did not inherit the sin nature with which we are all born (and for someone who supposedly has 8 kids to say that babies can't lie just because they can't speak is ludicrous...) because had He inherited it, He would not have been sinless and able to be the perfect sacrifice required for the sin of the world.
As a man, Jesus had the same issues we have: hunger, thirst, etc. Without sin. Hebrews 4:15 is clear on that: "For we have an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities: but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." He did not sin. We sin often. By commission and omission, because of our natural bent toward that. Natural meaning a distinct part of our nature with which we are born.
Being tempted is not sin in and of itself. Remember that we are in a fleshly body that has fleshly desires (not all desires are wrong...but when they are put in the wrong priority they become wrong). Because of those fleshly desires, we can be tempted, enticed. It is when we give in to those temptations (even if the desires are of a good thing, if they are in the wrong time/wrong place category, they are wrong) that is sin. And continuing in giving in to temptation causes the temptations to expand and become worse and worse...
Jesus Christ hungered after His 40 days in the desert. In His fleshly body, He needed food, just as we do. And so, because of His hunger, He could have been susceptible to the devil's tempting Him. But He wasn't. Why? Simply because He was God and could not sin, even in His human form.
At this point, Winman, can you or someone else explain what a 'sin nature' is, as is proposed. Are we talking about a desire or inclination to do or want things that are sinful, or is it the state of being born guilty for sins being committed by another? Or both?
Winman is a Pelagian; therefore, he will interpret verses to fit his theology. I posted a verse earlier that proves that because of Adam's sin, mankind was made sinners...
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
He jumped through his hoops of interpreting it as "legal" wording to say that it only set a precedent. That "might" make some type of sense if the word "sinner" only appeared in the context Romans 5...which he attributed this "legal" meaning of "sinner" to. However, the same word for "sinners" is used 45 other times throughout scripture...the same word...not used in legal context.
I don't have to tell anyone here this, but this is what "sinner" means...this also defines our sin nature...
From Webster's 1828 Dictionary...SIN'NER, n.
One that has voluntarily violated the divine law; a moral agent who has voluntarily disobeyed any divine precept, or neglected any known duty.
Greek...ἁμαρτωλός devoted to sin, a sinner
a. not free from sin
b. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
1. all wicked men
2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes 1b
c. tax collectors, heathen
I see no "legal" terminology in any of that...simply the fact that a sinner is a sinner. If Adam set the precedent, then how was Paul able to say...
1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Same word (sinners) used as in Romans 5:19...but he was CHIEF. This should settle whether Christ died for people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. We certainly agree that Christ died for Paul, and Paul was saved...yet he was the chief among sinners? Wow! Unlike Hitler, Paul not only had Jews sentenced to death...he had Christian Jews sentenced to death!
We inherited a sin-nature from Adam, and that's the plain teaching of scripture without having to twist it to fit Pelagianism. Just let God say what he said.
Winman isn't only a Pelagian, but he teaches that Jesus Christ had to be saved. That's why I quit responding to him.