Rapture cant be a concrete noun, and anyone with an education can mock us for our use of it as one.
We should care to be correct.
The dead in Christ RISE first, so it is a resurrection.
It is also the redemption of our bodies.
It is not a feeling of euphoria.
prophet, my statement about being adult applies specifically to you. My education level is higher than yours, I can guarantee that.
I said use resurrection. It is, because the dead will rise...but the LIVE people are not dead. Yes, it is the redemption of the body: being CAUGHT UP. Too bad you can't wrap your head around that fact. Now, you are being warned. Stop acting like a spoiled child that has to insult people in order to seem relevant.
As to "arguing doctrine with men..." This isn't church. It's a discussion forum. If you don't like it, leave. Simple enough.
prophet, PastorScott answered you well in another thread. And here's mine: dont start that nonsense. It's nothing more than sowing discord. And we all know - or should - what the Bible says about that.
We all use terms that aren't in the KJB...even you. Let's not be falsely pious.
Scripture has been abundantly shown - on both "sides" actually. The problem is that neither "side" accepts the "truth" presented by the other. And so argument ensues (which is common for just about any topic on here, actually ).
The OP is an article that points to the fact that pre-trib was mentioned way back...and if it was mentioned, even if someone were arguing against it, it was being taught, somewhere. And so...the argument that it began with Darby is proven to be wrong. Comment can be made that this or that is from the Catholic "fathers" or this person or that person. It does not really matter.
Darby did not originate pre-trib rapture thought. So let's dispense with that idea from henceforth.
Clear and abundant scripture has been shown. Re-reading this thread and others like it will show that. So, since the subject has been beaten to death, I'm going to close this thread. Never fear, I'm sure the subject will raise its head again (and there is a Matt 24 thread going on).
If pastors "did their job", mayhap KHam's ministry might not be needed. But fact remains that it is a great help to pastors/teachers/parents. The access KHam and other creation ministries has to scientists, etc., is something that rank and file pastors/teachers/parents do not have. Yes, it makes money. But so do many other things. Perhaps the money could be used for missionaries, but given the extent of knowledge that can be gleaned from the work done there, I believe it is money well spent. It's kinda like those who write curricula for education...if we apply the "it's the pastor's job" to teaching creation so KHam isn't necessary, then we have to apply the same standard to curricula. Because, honestly, all of the curriculum publishers make money hand over fist. Do we say they are unnecessary? Of course not. They are a help to the local church. Just as creation ministries can be.
This happened to my husband as well. He is not known to admit his own mistakes, though he has no problem pointing out the mistakes of others.
I think we can all be accused of this. He believes firmly in what he believes scripture says, just as your hubby does, as well as SFIC does. As has been proven by various threads throughout the years, all of us believe what we believe and are not easily swayed to change our thought or even to admit we might be wrong.
I dearly love the creation message that Ken and his cohorts at the museum (one of my college mates works in the office, and her hubby is editor of their magazine) present. It is a truth that creation and the truths of God's wondrous works are unknown by too many and unaccepted by too many others (even Christians have begun to apply man's "reasoning" to creation, thus creating a real dearth of the foundational basis of creation). Ken is on a mission, one I believe that God has given him. Is he IFB? Nope. Does he use the KJV? Nope. Would our church have him come speak? Nope.
We have had people in the past who are not preachers who speak for maybe 5 minutes - not to present doctrinal issues, but to just introduce themselves. Were they IFB? Nah. But, again, they weren't presenting doctrine. Creation is a doctrine. It is a vital, central doctrine. And, as such, anyone who would teach it at our church would need to be in agreement - in both word and practice - with our stand.
That said...our church has taken groups to the museum. And our Creation Club gets a lot of material from them. Creation Club, though, is not a church ministry, per se. We (the lady who started it and me) are members of the church, and all of the groups from which we cull information are vetted by one of the pastors to make sure stuff is right.
Honestly, I don't believe that Cloud is writing things purposely to cause division - although we know from Christ Himself that divisions will come. When there is a line drawn, there will be division when people cross it - because people will dislike the truth presented (I'm not referring to you, here, Kita!).
Para-church organizations will come under attack because they aren't under the authority of a church. But then, if they were under a church, there would be the attacks from people who would say that the church is trying to shove things down folks' throat, that they are misusing monies to create theme-park-like venues, etc. I honestly don't see a problem with them being separate.
I admire David Cloud while not agreeing with everything he says/does. And I admire Ken Ham while not agreeing with everything he says/does. (and I don't think we have anything written down about BGraham...but he is mentioned once in a while....once in a great while)
So is everyone else, including those that don't believe LOL
I just find it amazing how we all give Him the glory in hindsight. It is our decisions and actions that get us into touble and then get us out of trouble (or keep us in trouble LOL) And yes it is being honest. I am not going to pretend I like Him when I can't stand Him any more. But then you lot wouldn't understand a crisis of faith if it came and slapped you in the face - you're all perfect little IFB's. Take a look arround you. Our "Father" gave this world to the devil and us with it. We are all "Job's" in one form or another being punished for our faith while He sits back in silence and enjoys the show. Reality TV at it's best
"You lot." Hmmm....okay. Perfect? Nope. Little? Nope. IFB. Yep. But it's very foolish to think God doesn't take care of us. It is also foolish to not realize that life happens - and that means bad things happen to good people. When sin came into this world, problems came into it. It is quite a decided lack of faith to begin with not to realize God is in control and that He wins in the end.
I'm sorry for your crisis in faith, but don't come on here and belittle us because we have been able to get through our own crises...by trusting even when things are the darkest. Regardless of what you are going through, others have faced the same thing - some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree. Trusting in God is the only way to get through any of those crises without losing our marbles, as it were.
God gives all of us breath - saved or lost. And I'm thankful for it. I know beyond any shadow of doubt that my breath stays in my body (well, except when I exhale ) because God allows it. And no matter what arises, I know that all things will work together for good for me. God promises that. And I trust Him.
I give Him glory in hindsight because I know He is due the glory. I also trust Him for the future because I know He holds it in His hand. I don't always understand, and sometimes I do doubt when I get myself in the way. But He is faithful, and that is all I need.
(and this is coming from someone who has "looked around" quite a bit over several decades...)