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#394086 Way Of Life - When Was The Pre-Tribulation Rapture First Taught?

Posted by Invicta on 19 November 2014 - 07:18 PM

The Scriptural evidence is clear and abundant....you simply refuse to hear it!  

The point of the article was to show that the Pre-Trib rapture was in fact taught long before Darby popularized it.  




If it is clear and abundant, please show where.

#393897 Way Of Life - When Was The Pre-Tribulation Rapture First Taught?

Posted by Invicta on 15 November 2014 - 08:37 PM

And how about this: Luke 17:22  And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Jesus, talking to His Disciples, says taht they WILL NOT SEE the days of the Son of Man.


These two passages combined indicate to me that what the Bible is actually teaching here is not in fact nonsense.


The only reason to take the Matthew passage as meaning the people listening right then is to force it to fit with your false claim that everything was fulfilled in AD 70.

Without that presupposition there is no need to change what the structure of the language says, nor to ignore the passage in Luke.

 They did not see His days when he was in the grave.

#393896 Way Of Life - When Was The Pre-Tribulation Rapture First Taught?

Posted by Invicta on 15 November 2014 - 08:33 PM

This thread gets a little confusing when we stop talking about the main topic and start fighting with each other.  


"When was the pre-tribulation rapture first taught?"


This is actually a loaded question used by liberals and atheists a lot. They use it to confuse us on one or two points then say that our beliefs must be false because we can not agree on something. You'll see this used a lot on some websites and blogs such as stuff fundies like as ammo against fundamentalists. Fundamentalist by in large hold to the pre tribulation  & pre millennial doctrines.  Yes they got them from Scofield who got them from Darby and his Brethren Sect.  Darby got the secret ratpture teaching from Edward Irving and his Charismatic followers.  Irving got it from a book he translated from Spanish, entitled The coming of the Christ in Power and Majesty. by J J ben Ezra,  A converted Jew.  A false name as his true name was Manuel Lacunza, a South American Jesuit.  It was a fraud.


The question is not asking if the pre trib position is biblical. I believe it is biblical but that's another matter.

Its asking when it was first taught. As you have seen in the article, it was believed and taught long before Charles Darby. (more on that later).

Was it taught by Jesus and the apostles? I personally believe it was, just not called "pre tribulation."  For that, you must understand the importance on "IMMINENCE".


Christ and the apostles taught us to be watchful of His soon coming. Like a thief in the night. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye Christ will come and call his bride away! Knowing that Christ may come at any moment is pre tribulation by default. If you wait till the the events of the first half of the tribulation happens and expect to be saved from the second half, "the great and terrible wrath of God", they why bother with imminence at all? Why bother looking for that great and blessed hope if all you have to do is wait for the first half of the 7 years of tribulation to happen?


For those who are post tribulationalist, do you really want to go through all that? Are you not saved from the wrath that is to come?

I have a frien who says he doesn't believe the church will go through the tribulation.  I say "What world are you living in?"  "What history do you read?"   Do you know history?  Do you read when the church was almost wiped out due to persecution or tribulattion.

You Americans have had it too easy and have gone soft. We in Europe know the tribulation that the saints have gone through under the Church of Rome. Within 20 miles of here many saints were burnt to death, starved to death or died of other persecutions. The French coast is nearer to wh, ere I live than London.  Have you heard of the massacre of Wassy (or Vassy)?  Or the massacre of St Bartholomew?  Have you nheard of vthe French Galleys when you would be sent  if you were caught attending preaching if you were a man or to imprisonment in the Tower of Constance if you were a woman.  For life.  The Tower was in a town called Aigues Mortes.  (Bitter deaths.)  When the persecution ended one man freed was 82 years old and a woman aged 52 was freed from the Tower having been sent  there when she and her mother were caught attending a service when she was eight years old.  Oh and you preachers, if you were caught leading a service, the sentence was to have your body broken on the wheel and then hung.  But then that wasn't tribulation. was it?  McGrath said he did not want tribulation because he didn't like a minor operation.  


Christians have suffered in their millions, all over Europe.  Have you heard of the Inquisition?  Not only in Spain but all over Europe?   Have you heard of the Iron Virgin?


The wrath to come is the judgment.


For Christ to allow his bride to go through the tribulation would be spousal abuse!


Now, back to Darby and Dispensationalism. Of all the views about the end times, the pre tribulation view is always linked with dispensationalism. Nearly always.

Darby did not come up with the pre tribulation doctrine by way of dispensationalism, but his system that he came up with lines up the best with the pre tribulation rapture.

It is also the best system that lines up with a LITERAL INTERPITATION of the Bible.



In the book "Things to Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost, it states: "Pretribulation rapturism rests essentially on one major premise- the literal method of interpretation of the Scriptures." If you don't have this book, stop what you are doing and GO GET IT AND READ IT!!  If it is a literal interpretation it is false for REv 1:1 says     1 ΒΆ  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Signified means it was told by signs, or figures,


So! back to the main focus of this thread: When was the pre tribulation rapture first taught? If you interpret the Bible literally and you are fully knowing that Christ can come at any moment, then you can say it was first taught in the new testament.

Therefor the pre tribulation rapture is both a historic doctrine and more important, a BIBLICAL one.


I hope this is a help to everyone and a good reason why we need to be a faithful steward of God's Word.  



Dr. Roberson 


I never hear any literalists mention Rev 10.  

#393712 The Coming Asteroid Impact In The Atlantic Ocean

Posted by Invicta on 12 November 2014 - 07:15 PM

I have most often heard it as something along the lines of the Catholic Church gaining secular as well as religious power.

So from what I have heard the answer would be no - but I personally have no great opinion on it.
I would be really surprised if the Catholic Church does not play a big part in the great tribulation though.


Have you ever heard of the papal states?  These were states which comprised much of Italy which the pope ruled over as his personal fief with his own armies.  These lasted until 1870, the same year as the pope proclaimed his infallibility when the French troops guarding Rome departed and the king of Italy walked in.   The Popes sulked and refused to leave the Vatican Palace until 1926 when Mussolini gave him Vatican City.  

#393609 Whats for Supper...

Posted by Invicta on 11 November 2014 - 05:07 PM

Left over mashed potato made into potato cakes with Bacon and cheese omelette garnished with watercress.

#393608 The Coming Asteroid Impact In The Atlantic Ocean

Posted by Invicta on 11 November 2014 - 05:03 PM

Ok, I assume people are not reading my posts. Nobody has answered my question.

Does anyone here believe Rome in Italy is the governmental power in armed forces that will be the

Revived Roman Empire that has been discussed here?


Or will it be another power like the Roman Empire of history?


And where exactly in scripture does it mention a revived Roman Empire?

#392911 Left Behind: Not A "christian Movie." Not Even Close.

Posted by Invicta on 02 November 2014 - 07:18 PM

I don't believe that the scripture teaches that there will be a second chance for anyone. 

#392884 Left Behind: Not A "christian Movie." Not Even Close.

Posted by Invicta on 02 November 2014 - 01:04 PM




I watched Noah, last night, what a great movie. I thought it brought a real human perspective in what it must have been like for Noah. I thought the whole idea of him being the "instrument" of god to rid the world of humanity was an interesting one. I agree it was VERY unbiblical. The only biblical thing was that God ignored everybody and didn't speak even to his poor fallen Angels who felt sorry for men and went to their rescue. A poor reflection of the story of Noah perhaps but a very accurate reflection of the Christian version of God who does nothing but judge and hate us. Good Movie.


Noah an  "instrument" of god to rid the world of humanity"


I don't thilnk so,  

2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

#392525 Whats for Supper...

Posted by Invicta on 31 October 2014 - 08:05 PM

We're having fish and chips.



Ah, but what fish?  Most here seem to like cod and chips.  My preference is for a nice piece of battered haddock.

#392448 Father, Forgive Them

Posted by Invicta on 30 October 2014 - 07:27 PM

I would agree that the specific sins were the context: those crucifying Jesus, and those stoning Stephen. 


That jesus' request was granted is plain, because He is God, and He Himself forgives sin. No reason to believe it wasn't the case here. Though I don't see in the context of it having to do with any other sins, or their general lost condition. Though at least one present DID, indeed, find faith and salvation in Christ, the thief next to Jesus.


In the case of Stephen's prayer, we can't know whether this was forgiven or not-this is between the Lord, Stephen and those stoning him. It is possible they weren't forgiven for this, unless they found salvation, but I suppose we'll know one day. It wouldn't have mattered if they continued on in sin, except that, if they were forgiven for this one, perhaps their eternal jucdgment will not be as bad as if they were held against them.


It is possible some at the cross were converted because:


Matt 24:54  Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. 

#391979 Here's A Question

Posted by Invicta on 24 October 2014 - 05:18 PM

1John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The following is the opening lines of The Noble Lesson of the Waldenses written about AD1160

"O Brethren, give ear to a noble lesson.

We ought always to watch and pray,
For we see the world nigh to a conclusion.
We ought to strive to do good works,
Seeing that the end of this world approacheth.
There are already a thousand and one hundred years fully accomplished,
Since it was written thus, for we are in the last time.
We ought to covet little, for we are at what remains, viz. at the later end. 


#391897 Way Of Life - Graham Kendrick

Posted by Invicta on 23 October 2014 - 09:45 AM

I have had misgivings about Kendrick for years. Can we sing his songs & reject his theology?


I don't think we can.  The danger is that those who come to our churches and join us singing his songs will look him up on Google and follow his teaching.  There is usually a bit of false teaching in most of his songs and the constant drip, drip, drip, will be, as the scripture says, "a little leaven."

#391606 Whats for Supper...

Posted by Invicta on 17 October 2014 - 03:14 PM

Fish and chips with left over cauliflower cheese.

#391548 Ads At Top Of Ob

Posted by Invicta on 16 October 2014 - 06:09 PM

I see frequent advertising for Reformed Church of God I think it is at top of my page of OB. Does anyone else see this advertising also?


Yes.  It started, I believe when someone asked what the Church of God was.  If you use Chrome I sggest Adblock for Chrome.  That seems to work.

#391090 Understanding Hebrews - 3

Posted by Invicta on 13 October 2014 - 06:08 PM



I wish to apologize for my part in derailing your previous thread.

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