Jump to content


Member Since 07 Aug 2011
Offline Last Active Today, 12:33 AM

#394842 Pilgrims & Baptists: The Little Known Connection

Posted by John81 on 26 November 2014 - 08:11 PM

Pilgrims & Baptists: the little known connection


NASHVILLE (BP) -- If not for a Baptist church split, the Pilgrims might never have come to America.


Sort of.


John Smyth, who often is credited with being the first Baptist, pastored a church where many of the Christians who later came to be known as Pilgrims were members. But when Smyth began to argue with the future Pilgrims over church government, they formed another church under the leadership of John Robinson. In 1620, a portion of Robinson's congregation sailed to Plymouth, Mass., aboard the Mayflower.


Following the split, Smyth became convinced that the Bible teaches believer's baptism and launched the Baptist movement.


"Most people don't realize how closely the Pilgrims and the first Baptists were related. John Smyth and [Plymouth Colony governor] William Bradford knew each other, and in fact Smyth pastored the church where many of the Pilgrims were members before they left England for Holland and then sailed to America," Jason Duesing, provost at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, told Baptist Press in written comments. "The world of English Separatism was very intertwined. Those that became Baptists were a formative part of the story that led to the first Thanksgiving."


Smyth and the Pilgrims both emerged from a movement in England known as Separatism.


In the late 1500s and early 1600s, the Church of England, which was controlled by the British monarch, was Protestant in its doctrine but largely followed Catholic worship practice. A group of Christians known as Puritans objected to Catholic rituals and thought worship should only include elements taught in the Bible. Many Puritans tried to reform the Church of England without leaving its membership, but some radical Puritans separated from the state church altogether and formed what historians call Separatist congregations.


Being a Separatist could be trying. Many were imprisoned and some were even executed for their beliefs.


A forthcoming Baptist history textbook from B&H Academic titled "The Baptist Story" explains, "In an effort to curb the growth of Separatists, a law was passed in April 1593 requiring everyone over the age of 16 to attend the church of their local parish, which comprised all who lived within a certain geographic boundary."


Failure to obey the law "for an entire month meant imprisonment," B&H authors Anthony Chute, Nathan Finn and Michael Haykin wrote. "If, three months following an individual's release from prison, he or she still refused to conform, the person was to be given a choice of exile or death. In other words, the established church and the state were hoping to be rid of the Separatist problem by sending those who were recalcitrant into exile."


Faced with the choice of exile or death, most Separatists opted for exile, including about 40 who ended up in Amsterdam with their pastor, Francis Johnson.


In 1608 a second Separatist church traveled to Amsterdam pastored by Smyth. At first the two congregations fellowshipped with each other. Their pastors had known each other since Johnson served as one of Smyth's tutors at the University of Cambridge, according to The Baptist Story.

But conflict emerged when Smyth took issue with the Johnson congregation's distinction between pastors, teachers and ruling elders among its leadership. Smyth believed Scripture combined the three positions into one office, the pastor/elder, and he said every church should have multiple elders or pastors. This and other differences led to a break of fellowship between the two churches.


The doctrinal conflict also contributed to a split in the church led by Smyth -- though historians disagree about whether the church split occurred in England or the Netherlands.


John Robinson led a faction of about 100 members from the Smyth church who eventually relocated to the city of Leiden and became known as Pilgrims, famously moving to America and landing on Plymouth Rock in 1620. Smyth soon came to believe that only followers of Jesus should be baptized and administered baptism to himself and his congregation by pouring. Later Thomas Helwys assumed leadership of the congregation, which some regard as the first English Baptist church, when Smyth sought to join a Mennonite church in the Netherlands.


Years later, when Bradford recounted the Pilgrims' journey to America as well as their celebration of the first Thanksgiving in 1621, he noted their interaction with the Baptists.


Among the members of an early Separatist church, Bradford wrote in "Of Plymouth Plantation," was "Mr. John Smyth, a man of able gifts and a good preacher, who afterwards was chosen their pastor. But these afterwards falling into some errors in the Low Countries" -- a reference to the congregation's adoption of Baptist views in the Netherlands -- "there (for the most part) buried themselves and their names."


Despite the Pilgrims' unfavorable view of Baptists, Duesing said they should be remembered with thankfulness this Thanksgiving.


"This congregation of 'pilgrims' had already endured the arduous journey of leaving England due to ... persecution from the established church, yet, a section of them desired still to travel further," Duesing said. "Life in Holland was difficult for English expatriates, and for some a prosperous future both for the church and in terms of economic and social survival, seemed dim. The Mayflower group determined to leave ... for New England, then, in part to continue to have the freedom to establish their church separate from the state, but also to do so in an environment that gave more potential for long-term survival. The idea of America seemed worth another arduous and costly journey for these reasons."


As Bradford wrote, the Pilgrims also hoped to be a part of "propagating and advancing the Gospel of the Kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world."


In another connection to Baptists, many of the Pilgrims' descendants -- the New England Congregationalists -- became Baptists during the First Great Awakening of the 1730s and 40s.


All Christians, including Baptists, should study the Pilgrims, Duesing said, because they were "a heroic group who sought a better life for their children and grandchildren centered around a church faithful to the New Testament and positioned for seeking the advance of the Gospel."



#394141 Way Of Life - Hating The Rapture

Posted by Ukulelemike on 20 November 2014 - 04:30 PM

Are you referring to the Second Coming or the catching away of the Church (slang is Rapture)? Your Scriptural references apply only to the former and not the latter. You remember the Scriptures dealing with the catching away of the Church, don't you? You know the whole thief in the night; the hour no man knoweth, two in the field, one taken; etc etc etc.


If you want to be here for the trib my friend, I recommend you collect and study every doomsday show on the discovery channel you can find. You will need it or just surrender your head without any attempt to evade and survive.The idea that believing in a mid or post trib/pre-wrath catching up, means one 'wants to be here for the trib' is error. No one in their right mind would want to be, but when one's study finds no clear passages of scriptuire that says otherwise, and the only really clear scripture declares it to take place just prior to the outpouring of God's wrath AFTER the tribulation, then what else can we do? By the way, it isn't TV shows and movies or works of fiction I will seek to, but to the Bible. Not much chance to survive and evade, at least not for long. In fact, most WILL die, because it will be given to the Antichrist to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. I suspect there will be far more going up first, from the grave, than "we who are alive and remain".


It would be a shame if you are the only born again person prior to the Lord coming in the air not spared from this great tribulation. Who will you talk to about being left behind? It will be lonely for you. (I am poking fun-please forgive) Maybe not as lonely as you believe.


Of course, if you are born again, you won't be here whether you have been deceived into mid or amil or not. Hey to each their own I suppose but it amazes me that folks can actually confuse the differences between the two events in Scripture. Still haven't seen the scripture that proves this out, that Christians won't be present for the tribulation time.


But hey, apparently there are diverse group of religious folks on this site supposedly being lead by the Spirit in their study of the Scriptures and almost none of them agree on much of anything, even repentance unto salvation. Can't argue that.

#394135 Way Of Life - Hating The Rapture

Posted by Ukulelemike on 20 November 2014 - 02:19 PM

Got a couple in our church who used to attend a Methodist church-the only reason they come to mine is because they moved away from that one. Now, all the things they have heard about the worldliness of the Methodists today, the error, the outright lies sometimes going forth there, woman preachers, etc, yet when they visit that area, they always go back to that church, and then gush about how wonderful it was to be there.  Again, kind of slow folks-she's a bit slow and he has a form of Aspergers.


This is my group-as well, I have an Armenian lady who is from an Orthodox church in Armenia, who only goes to ours because there is no orthodox church to attend. She argues about how terrible the Jews are, crosses herself, and in her heart is still orthodox, even tho9ugh she hears the truth regularly. With her, I suspect it is a language thing, as she speaks English only so well. But at least she got it last week concnerning Baptism, and she now agrees that baptism doesn't protect a baby, that it has nothing to do with salvation. But its slow, after so long being immersd in a religion that is a major part of her culture.


But I am thankful for each person, and thankful that they are there and I can keep them under the gospel, and maybe, one day, they will hear and understand.

#393567 Way Of Life - When Was The Pre-Tribulation Rapture First Taught?

Posted by John81 on 11 November 2014 - 08:51 AM

Considering Christian men have been discussing and debating end-times matters for centuries, and though they all be born again in Christ and serving the Lord, yet they did not all agree upon end-times matters, it's not likely anyone today will suddenly come up with definitive proof to 100% show a particular view is correct and all others incorrect.


I see no problem with discussing the issue, after all, it is in Scripture, but to argue, accuse, defame, and continually carry on serves no good purpose.


Naturally, each person believes their view is the correct biblical view or they wouldn't hold to it. In such matters its so much better for each to present why they believe their view is correct and let it alone unless they can and wish to carry on a civil discussion regarding details.


We are all in agreement that at some point Christ will return to judge the lost and they, along with the devil and his followers and hell itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire; and the saved will receive glorified, resurrection bodies and we will dwell with the Lord forever. It's the details in between where Christians have been unable to come to a consensus for 2,000 years. Bible believers and Baptists have, and still do, hold to various end-times views. This, in part, is why end-times beliefs were not considered to be a fundamental of the faith. It's only been in more recent times that some churches have decided to declare it as such.


The most learned religious men in Israel had a wrong understanding of the First Coming of Christ. Should we really shoot our brethren over different thoughts concerning the end-times?

#393673 Sheep, Shepherd, Or Wolf?

Posted by heartstrings on 12 November 2014 - 11:51 AM

Oh yes, I forgot to mention; Many wolves use a King James Bible exclusively too. This gives them no merit. Actually it's more deceptive for us and dangerous for them because they are adding to and taking away from God's Word, False witnesses against God is what they are. God hates it and sheep flee from it. Bennie Hinn also uses a King James too as do many of the Pentecostals, in my community, who teach a works salvation out of it. One can "defend" the King James all they want to while not even knowing the God of the King James. His name is Jesus Christ and He is the only Way, the Truth and the Life,

#393526 On Slavery

Posted by John81 on 10 November 2014 - 07:23 PM

The Constitution and 2nd Amendment are violated daily. Under the 2nd Amendment, the federal government has absolutely no authority to regulate, legislate or in any other way hinder a citizen from having and carrying arms yet there are a myriad of federal laws that violate this.


Depending upon where one wants to buy and own land, there can be many hurdles to such based upon federal, State or local laws. In a nearby small city it's even illegal to do any interior work on a private home without obtaining permission from the city and obtaining (paying for) a permit. Land and homes are confiscated for economic reasons, because of EPA regulations, the endangered species act, etc. Fail to pay property taxes and one quickly discovers they have only been renting the property from the government who seizes the property and sells it.


What we call freedom today our ancestors called slavery and tyranny.

#393326 New Booklet Tract: Changing “Jesus Calling”—Damage Control For A False Christ

Posted by John81 on 08 November 2014 - 09:44 AM

I find the article here kinda a lot of words to say such little.

I have never heard of this stuff, but if people that call themselves

children of the Living God believe a book over the Word of God - they are proving 'of whom' they are born.


Kinda like the 'Passion of the Christ' movie, being based on a book written from a conglomeration of 'visions'

from a coupla catholic women, instead of from the Bible.

Atleast that's what I heard from a preacher I knew years ago.

I don't think it proves of whom they are born, though no doubt many secular christians are into this, but it does indicate how many immature Christians are out there, how many that need to be discipled, how many need those mature in the faith to help them grow in Christ, how many have such little understanding of the Bible, how many are more inclined to read books "about Jesus/Christianity" than to actually read the Bible, how easy it is for new and immature Christians to be led astray.


There are many Christians I've known over the years, that I have no reason to doubt they are in Christ, who have yet got caught up in things like the Purpose Driven drivel, Prayer of Jabez craze, Passion of the Christ, Jesus Calling and such like.


For many, I believe they want to grow in the Lord, they simply don't know the right, best way to go about that. Their pastors aren't properly feeding them, mature Christians aren't discipling them, they don't have the discernment to know things like "Jesus Calling" isn't what it claims or may even seem to be.

#393197 Why King James Only?

Posted by Steve Schwenke on 06 November 2014 - 06:25 PM

YAY! 2000 likes!


Sorry, back to topic.


By the way, not looking for a fight with anyone, and I apologize for what might seem like my pulling an attitude about Peter Ruckman. I admit to not reading a whole lot of his stuff-I have taken the word of some that I trust, but that being said, I should perhaps look a bit more into his actual works.


I am not, however, a liar-I did not lie about what I said, and I don't yet know for certain that I am in error about it. But I will look into it. Just hard to find time to read everything that is out there.

Mike, I don't think you are malicious in your intentions.  But these quotes get passed around all the time.  I am telling you as someone who was in his church for 4 years, and sat in his classes for 3 years, and played floor hockey with him during that time, and has read most of his books, and listened to countless hours of his teaching and preaching that those quotes are taken out of context.  


They are sarcastic jabs at people who worship Greek and Hebrew.  They are jabs at those who teach preacher boys that the only way they can understand the depths of the Bible is by learning Greek and Hebrew.  These jabs are usually thrown after he shows some tremendous truths that all of the great "scholars" MISSED while they were floundering around in Greek and Hebrew.  His point is simple - if you have a KJV, you have everything you need.  

If you read those quotes in their proper setting, anyone could see it.  Therefore, those who have purposefully LIFTED those quotes out of their proper context did so knowing full well that this was a great distortion and misrepresentation of what Dr. Ruckman believes.  

OF COURSE he believes the original manuscripts were infallible when they were written.  The point is simple - THOSE ORIGINALS DON'T EXIST ANYMORE, so why waste time going back to something we don't have?  We have God's perfect word for us today in the KJV - let's just stick with that, and stop wasting time elsewhere.

#393189 Way Of Life - When Was The Pre-Tribulation Rapture First Taught?

Posted by Ukulelemike on 06 November 2014 - 05:37 PM

I'm an IFB but see nothing to suggest I won't see it from earth. And my biblical stand, faith and practice are as strong as ever. Good thing we have that little "I" in "IFB".  


BY the way, I'm a big follower of Cloud's work and writings-I just think there is a lot in the argument many, including him, ignore and assume on the subject. I actually still have a thesis written on the subject by another person on the site, which he kindly sent me, as a refutation to my position, which I admit, I have not yet sat down to read. But I will. Its a subject that I have not been afaraid to look at from all sides, nor afraid to hear challenges, especially since I used to hold to the pre-tribulation position. Sadly, I see many pre-tribulationists who refuse to hear or read any differing position, and I have been separated from because of it, though I don't see it as an separation position. BUt we must each do as we believe the Lord wills.

#393182 Why King James Only?

Posted by Steve Schwenke on 06 November 2014 - 03:32 PM


Where was God's perfectly preserved text prior to 1611?


The Russians had their own Bible from the correct text in the 1500's, as did most of the European languages.  That is why the Title Page on the KJV says "with the former translations diligently compared."  The KJV translators checked their work with other current vernacular translations, the Hebrew and Greek texts (rejecting what is now know as the CT), and other ancient translations.  There work was thorough in every sense of the word, unlike the modern slop that is coming out.  The Bibles in European languages at that time were the correct Bibles. 


Today, the CT has ruined the translation process.  Most languages has traded in their TR translation in for the CT translation to the extent that it is difficult to find a good translation in many parts of the world simply because nobody prints the correct version anymore.  But still, the important thing for those people in that situation is their ATTITUDE toward the word of God.   The attitude of the "scholars" is that they think they know more than God, and it is their duty to tell everyone where the Bible is "wrong."  The attitude of the believer is to believe WHAT HE HAS IN HIS HANDS, and trust that the Lord will bless it.  And God will bless them on an individual basis for their faith, even if their Bible is wrong in some places.  Their growth will be stunted to some degree or another, but God is still able to overcome that.  A good missionary will seek to put the right Bible in their hands if at all possible, even if it means producing a new translation from the correct text. 


Why English?  It is the universal language of the day.  We send people all over the world to teach English.  It is the dominant language used universally.  In the OT times, if you wanted a copy of the TRUE Scriptures, it was in Hebrew.  Today, it is in English. 

#393157 Last one to post in this thread wins

Posted by John81 on 06 November 2014 - 08:03 AM

after I rejoiced over the elections the Lord spoke to my heart and said but he is still president.. so keep praying Saints of God

While I'm glad the elections took a Republican turn rather than Democrat, when I look to what sort of Republicans were elected and where the Republican Party is heading, and listened to what so many said, I didn't find anything to rejoice in.


Many are already pointing out it wasn't conservatives that won elections, but the "moderate" Republicans. The Republican Party leadership has been pushing for a "more diverse offering of candidates", by which they mean more "moderates", more women, more blacks, more hispanics, more "gays", so they can claim the Republican Party "truly represents America".


I've heard many Republicans now calling even somewhat conservative Republicans "far Right conservatives". Most of the Republican Party doesn't want to restore the government to its constitutional bounds, they don't want to work to reestablish the more traditional and Christian based nation. Instead there are calls and plans for tinkering around the edges in order to "fix" those things they should be opposed to and working to eliminate.


A few still use the old catch phrases of "limited government" or "smaller government" but if we listen carefully to what they are saying, their idea of both isn't a matter of literally eliminating unconstitutional programs, agencies, regulations and laws, it's only a matter of tweaks in the tax code.


Meanwhile, most Republicans have already made up their mind they won't present any real challenge to Obama when he goes against them because they are afraid of the media backlash and afraid doing so will hurt them in 2016.


Indeed, we need to be in much, continual prayer.

#393159 Serves Em Right

Posted by John81 on 06 November 2014 - 08:24 AM

This also reminds me how the government has tried to legislate how even Christian organizations serve the poor, and others. There have been laws put forth which restrict government aid (which I don't believe any truly Christian helps program or organization should accept or even want government aid) if in the course of giving assistance the Gospel is presented.


Similar laws have terribly impacted homes for not only the poor, but orphans, pregnant women, etc.


The lost serve their father the devil, either willingly or as fools, but they serve him just the same. These servants seek to strike at God through any means to prevent people from fulfilling not only the first great command, but also the second. In so doing the spread of the Gospel is hindered along with the spread of Christian love, kindness and assistance which helps open some to the Gospel or at least affords yet another opportunity to share the Gospel.


Why so many Americans today still think their government and country is so much more virtuous and incapable of the evil they see in other nations, I can only chalk up to them being blinded to the truth.

#393162 Hell Is A Real Place

Posted by Ukulelemike on 06 November 2014 - 09:22 AM

"and the Devil has his soul to torment in Hell forever."  I would remove this, as it is not the Devil that torments a soul in Hell-the Devil isn't in hell, nor does he wish to be, because the lake of fire, (where we will go after removed from Hell), is his final destination, where he will be as much a prisoner as others.


As well, from the 'Society of Hell" part, this entire idea of being ruled by Satan and his angels is silly-they will be cast in to burn, as well as humans. In the Lake of Fire,  there will be no rulers, no one poking anyone else with pitchforks or jamming pineapples up their nether regions. It will be prison and torment for all there, and actually, if anything, it will be worse for the devil and his angels, because, knowing God as they did, they still rebelled. Where much is given, much is expected, and so the worse the punishment for rebellion.


Still, overall a good site, and I'm sure you'll receive a lot of hate for it, but that would be expected for such a thing. I like it.

#393020 Idaho Christian Couple May No Longer Face Fines, Jail Time For Not Hosting Sa...

Posted by Kitagrl on 04 November 2014 - 02:35 PM

Basically in my mind, the only thing to be concerned about is general freedom of belief for religious businesses, not necessarily the individual beliefs of each "Christian" person in the news.


It doesn't really matter whether or not the woman is a pastor in regards to politics and laws...what matters is whether or not our government allows them to keep their religious freedom or not.  That is what affects us, and nothing else.  To me, I look at this the same as the t-shirt companies, the cake companies, and the flower companies, all of whom have been targeted by the GLBT gestapo.

#392992 Election Day - For What It's Worth

Posted by John81 on 04 November 2014 - 08:28 AM

Pretty good. I've long been against the idea of companies giving to campaigns as if they are individuals; which they clearly are not. Anyone with a bit of sense, or consideration for honesty, would recognize that corporations are not people and shouldn't be giving to political candidates because eventually their access to staggering resources would enable them to buy elections and candidates/politicians.


The author is on the liberal side so it's understandable why he chose to use the Koch brothers as his example, but it's interesting to note that big Dem donors far out give the Koch brothers. Also, while the Koch brothers give most of their political money to Republicans, they are not conservatives and they also give millions to organizations and events which are considered domains of the liberals.


In any case, I don't believe corporations should be allowed to donate to politicians.


It would also be nice, and helpful, if they placed restrictions on who can give in senate and representative races. One should only be able to give to those running for Senate in the State they live in. One should also only be able to give to those running for Representative from the district they live in.


Alas, none of the above will be because those in power love that power and work hard to further concentrate their power and make it easier to hold on to power.

The Fundamental Top 500IFB1000 The Fundamental Top 500