Ah, typology, I like that subject. Let's look at typology in the light of the tribulation
Noah and the flood: God's wrath fell on the earth and its inhabitants with the great flood to destroy all life off the earth. But Noah found grace in God's eyes, and He spared him and his family, along with some animals. But He didn't remove Noah completely from the tribulation of that time, instead, he lifted him to ride it out safely atop the judgment.
Lot was the one righteous man in Sodom, and we may presume Gomorrah and the other three cities of the plains destroyed by God. But the Lord, in preserving Lot, didn't remove him from all tribulation, but allowed him to escape the wrath of God, and remove to another place. yet he still had to endure loss and still had trouble associated with it.
Of course, we see Enoch, who walked with God, and was not, for the Lord took him. This removeal in itself, as a type of the catching away, doesn't seem to be at all related to missing tribulation or trouble, just a removal, so is it typology for the catching up? Same with Elijah being taken up, no trouble related to it, just a removal.
Understand, I am not assuming that you use these particular events as typology for the tribulation and catching up, but these are some that are typically used, and the more I consider them, the less they seem to promise a catching away from the time of tribulation, and more a promise to preserve us and protect us, to cause us to ride above the storms of God's judgments against the wicked, while still present to witness them.
But this is how I understand them. It was mentioned above the idea that God would teach His people differently-of course, like the one who mentioned it, I don't believe He does, I think we too often look at scripture according to our thoughts and yes, whether we want to admit it or not, we have all been influenced in some manner from a teacher or preacher; not that we're parrots or sheep, (though we are sheep, but not in that way), but surely its impossible NOT to be influenced by men we respect for their wisdom and understanding. Not sure what we can do about that-unless we altogether reject any human teachers and preachers, but to do so would be against the word of God, and those types ALWAYS fall into weird error.
Fortunately, I don't see the subject of rapture, (yes, I said it) timing as fundamental, as important to one's faith or salvation, nor even something that, depending on what we believe, would reject the direct teachings of Christ, except for those who believe there will be no catching up. I believe we all agree that it will happen, and it will happen when the Lord deems it is time to happen, and I suspect there is not one of us here that would not be willing to repent and seek forgiveness if they are found wrong on the day of judgment.
You assume we will know the exact day the tribulation begins. I suspect that, if we ARE here, we will wake up as any other day, and not realize the Lord's clock has begun. Now, if you are correct, and we are raptured out, then yes, those remaining will have a zero hour-they can look at the event and say, "Yes, they all disappeared at exactly 3:12pm Tuesday the 15th of whatever, on such and such a date." But again, there is NO scriptural evidence that shows Jesus coming and taking His people, except for in Rev 14, where we have an abundantly clear picture of Jesus, after the seventh, (the last) trumpet, IN the clouds, reaping His harvest, immediately prior to the reaping of the clusters of the vine, which are then cast into the winepress of God's wrath. Show me a clearer view of the catching-up.
Many people think America is not mentioned in the scriptures: irregardless, what if people
in America aren't mentioned, because they don't see things happening, atleast not immediately, and just aren't involved with the 'end times'?
I find that possible. Not probable, but my imagination could conceive the notion. Lazy America, and maybe blind to what is really going on.
In reference to a comment made earlier, I have to say that belief in a Gap Theory is not a non-essential. If the classically-accepted Gap Theory is correct, then we have death occurring before sin. Since the Bible states that death is a consequence of sin, this idea would have serious consequences on our soteriology.
I'm an IFB and therefore never stopped believing the Bible truth that I will not see the tribulation from earth. The article is a very good read and will only serve to strengthen your Biblical stand of faith and practice.
on 30 October 2014 - 06:09 AM
I must applaud you envangalist6589 for being so bold as to preach the Gospel. I could not agree more, churches today have certainly become too liberal. Preaching acceptance of homosexuality and the non-existence of Hell are just two obvious example. The gospel may be unpalatable to those perishing but we must press on, I only wish I could be so bold. "David, I am striving to write to you in kindness but the Bible is quite clear that you are not as good as you think you are and will spend an eternity in Hell unless you repent and turn to Christ" This kind of language can often be misconstrued but I absolutely get where you are coming from. If somebody was about to walk off a cliff would you yell and scream at them or just casually softly talk to them. Amazing stuff !!!
The 5 were singled out because of petitions that apparently were circulated against the "bathroom" bill (what the churches call it) - the bill that would make public restrooms open to any gender...even though there are laws on the books in TX that would keep certain people away from restrooms of opposite gender because of being pedophiles.
Before she started backpedaling, she tweeted that the 5 pastors got into politics, so they aren't protected...She obviously has no knowledge of American history.
For starters, homosexuality/gender nonsense isn't political at its root, it is spiritual (as is abortion, adultery, etc., etc.). And as such, any "issue" that is out there in public that relates to that is open to be preached about in the pulpit.
Secondly, the founding people of this country did not in any way believe that Christians and/or pastors were to keep their noses out of politics. The erroneous idea of separation of church and state being that no Christians have say in government and no government offices can in any way acknowledge God or Jesus Christ has contributed to government servants becoming lords and masters as Christians bow the knee to them believing they are obeying God...
For the entire time I've been here this site has been fueled by discussion/debate. Years back there were a few who would stick to biblical reasoning in their discussions/debates with those they had disagreement rather than calls for silencing other views, simply declaring them false or such. Typically, those presenting another side would either give up and leave, or they would be the ones resorting to fleshly name calling, personal attacks and such which would often lead to them being stopped by Mods, their banning or them grabbing their ball and going home on their own.
During the few times when there was no discussion/debate this site has ground almost to a halt. Threads where everyone agrees tend to receive few responses. I started a simple thread on prayer and only a few responses, yet if someone posts something about Calvinism, Post-trib rapture, women and pants or similar postings and that thread will burst with responses.
If anything, we need to hone our fruits of the Spirit and we need to hone our defense of what we say we believe and we need to hone our discussion skills. We should be able to see a topic we disagree with and have the patience, gentleness, self-control, love and kindness to respond in a civil manner in way that may be edifying to readers. We should be able to present our view through decent application of Scripture rather than name-calling, personal attacks and anger. We should be able to carry on a rational discussion on an internet board without our flesh taking control.
Yeah, I know, that's a lot more work than simply making a quick post declaring someone to be wrong, uneducated, and needing to move on, but it's by far the more edifying manner and the more biblically correct manner. Iron sharpeneth iron but if we refuse to engage through sound scriptural reasoning, we are not being sharpened and neither are others.
I'm sure you meant "do you know how rabbits chew cud?" Answer: why yes I do know and it's disgusting! There's a reason why I always pushed my rabbit off the bed when he tried to lick my face in the morning. yuck.
I haven't seen any of the Star Wars prequels, I might see Episode 7, though, just because it's a continuation of the older movies.
Whatever our person thoughts on the KJB, the fact does remain many Christians (not speaking of lost folks here even though they could be included) do indeed have a difficult time with the language in the KJB. Most aren't going to take the time (most don't even know it can be done or how to go about it) to learn to understand the KJB. This is especially true when Christian bookstores are filled with dozens of other versions that each tries to corner the "easy to read" market.
As Mike pointed out, words such as "ye, thou, thee" have a different meaning than a simple "you". Yet even there, most folks have no clue about that fact. I've even heard preachers who use the KJB substitute "you" for these words as they try to read from their KJB without using the words actually written there.
Recent studies indicate that nearly 20% of Christians never read the Bible while only 20% say they read the Bible regularly. The other 80% of Christians fall in the category of reading the Bible maybe a couple times a month or a couple times a year. That's a very dismal report. That tells us that even with a plethora of "easy to read" Bibles out there, most American Christians still aren't reading them. This when nearly every American home has over 4 Bibles, according to surveys.
Likely as not, even if an updated KJB that everyone here would find acceptable were to be produced, it would draw few new Bible readers.
Removal of the Bible from public schools and colleges has given us generations in America now who are biblically illiterate. Couple that with the poor Bible teaching in many American churches and things only get worse. Added to that is the lower literacy rate in America as fewer Americans can even read or read at a 6th grade level.
It's not only the Bible that's not being read, according to surveys, fewer Americans today read any books at all.
The whole argument that "if we had an easier to read Bible more people would be reading the Bible" has proven to be false. There are far more than enough easy to read, watered down Bibles out there and people still aren't reading them.
By both conviction and preference, I'll be sticking with the KJB.
It really depends upon what we believe the pastor to be in the wrong about. Is he wrong about the color he wants the church to be painted or is he wrong about his presentation of the Gospel?
I've never met a pastor I was in 100% agreement with but the two pastors I had for the longest I was in very high agreement with and on the matters where I would have a disagreement they were not key matters of doctrine or anything like that.
The one pastor I did have which I had an important disagreement with I spoke to privately and got nowhere. There were two others in the church who had the same issue, both had spoken to the pastor to no effect either. We approached the pastor together and told him we would like to discuss the issue with him. The pastor agreed, made an appointment, we met, shared our concerns (with applicable Scripture) and the pastor sat there mostly in silence as we talked. When we finished the pastor made it very clear to us that he was running the church, he wasn't about to change things back or stop what he was doing and if we didn't like it we could leave. Then he stood up, said he wouldn't talk about it anymore and showed us the door. We left and went church hunting.
So, if the disagreement is over a matter of real importance, ask to speak with the pastor about it. If the disagreement is over a matter of lesser importance, consider the matter very carefully and prayerfully as to whether it's worth bringing up or not. In both cases, be in much prayer, follow the Lord's leading.
First of all study the issue that you have a problem with.
Second go to him and him alone. Matthey 18:15
If he is a real pastor then he will have no problem discussing with you the difference of opinion. Whatever the case, use scripture and only scripture as your guide.
Third do all of this with a restoring/growing attitude. Don't accuse the pastor (1 Timothy 5:19) of doing wrong, rather have him show you with scripture why he believes what he believes.
Most importantly be in much prayer daily and be very patient. Way too many "church" decisions are made on the spur of the moment giving heed to the devil and lying spirits oftentimes. Never make a spiritual decision in the flesh. That's to say don't let feelings rule over discernment.
Keep these things in mind and keep a pure heart and God will lead you in what to do. Always remember that the only one you both will ever have to answer to is God himself. Hebrews 13:17 and Romans 14:11-12
I'm going through some of the same stuff you are right now. Praying for you for sure!!
Without putting any words in anyone's mouth, is this what's being said? (Taken from Les' web pages)
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Now from my understanding of the word "created" which is "Barah" in the Hebrew, and I’ve even read some Hebrew commentary on it not too long ago, that the word meant "perfect creation." In other words God did not create the mess as I call verse 2, because when you look at that verse the earth is under flood water, it’s void, or of no use, and yet that which evidently God had created perfectly in verse 1 must have been without a flood, and yet here in verse 2 it is void, and under water.
Now I’ve learned over the years to call verse 2 "The First Flood," and Noah’s was the second. Well what happened here in verse 2? Why did God destroy that original beautiful earth that He had created by the word of His mouth? Well naturally something cataclysmic had to have happened, and I think the best way we can find the answer for that is go to the Scripture itself. I know some theologians will disagree with me, but just as many will agree, but this is the way I feel the most comfortable with this whole idea that between verse 1 and verse 2 something terrible happened, so that God had to destroy the earth with a flood. So now let’s turn to Ezekiel chapter 28, and we’ll begin with verse 13.
Now I don’t take this approach just simply to pacify the evolutionist concepts of the billions of billions of years of time. No way at all. I don’t do this to just simply insert the geological ages of time, which I don’t agree with. I don’t agree with the evolutionist approach whatsoever. I’m a creationist, and believe that in the beginning God spoke the Word, and everything was created as He wanted to create it. But I do have to feel that after a certain period of time, and I don’t know how long that was, it might have been 5 years, or 500 years, or even 5 billion, I don’t know, and again my answer is, "So what!" But I do feel that there was an interruption because of something that drastically took place, and I think we can begin to find that answer in Ezekiel chapter 28. (goes on to talk about the devil)
bara translated create (42x), creator (3x), choose (2x), make (2x), cut down (2x), dispatch (1x), done (1x), make fat (1x) + commentary = "perfect creation"
waters + own ideas = flood
own ideas of flood + void = devil's kingdom
own ideas of devil's kingdom + more ideas = unknown amount of time