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Pastor Scott Markle

Member Since 27 Dec 2012
Offline Last Active Today, 04:21 PM
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Posts I've Made

In Topic: Concerning Daniel 9:24-27

09 December 2014 - 10:56 AM

Concerning the above posting --

 

I recognize that postings such as that which I have presented above are often found to be controversial, and I expect nothing different with the above posting.  I also recognize that more controversial postings generally generate the most amount of commenting over the shortest period of time.  Recognizing these things, I wish to present the following burden:

 

It is generally my burden to respond unto others as much as I am able with a manner of thoughtfulness and thoroughness.  However, such thoughtfulness and thoroughness requires a greater amount of time (time which I do not always have available due to other, greater responsibilities).  Even so, if this thread explodes with comments as is so commonly the case for such "controversial" threads, then I simply will not be able to respond adequately to every comment.  As such, I request the patience (and possibly even, looooongsuffering) of those who comment and contribute.

In Topic: Matthew 24

22 November 2014 - 02:11 PM

Thank you, Scott & Geneva, for carefully reasoned posts to explain your understanding of the passage.

 

Like Geneva, I find it strange that you do not see the temple timing destruction in the Lord's answer. If we read Mat. 23 before 24 . . .

 

Brother "Covenanter,"

 

With this posting I do not intend to deliver my response to the substance of your posting.  I do yet intend to do so; however, I will require a certain amount of time in order to present that response in the manner that I am presently considering.  On the other hand, I am making this posting in order to present a defense of my approach in my first posting and in order to present an acknowledgement of fault on my own part.  

 

First, my defense of self -- In my first posting, I was seeking first to answer the question of the original posting directly according to the context of Matthew 24.  That the direct audience for our Lord's teaching in Matthew 23 was both the multitudes (including the religious leaders of Judea) and Christ's disciples is to be acknowledges according to the Biblical record, as per Matthew 23:1.  However, that there is a change in direct the audience for our Lord's teaching from Matthew 23 to Matthew 24 should also be acknowledged according to the Biblical record, as per Matthew 24:3.  Furthermore, in my first posting I was seeking to present the focus of our Lord's answer unto the disciples' question (in Matthew 24:3) as it is recorded in Matthew 24:4-31.  That there are parallel passages to be considered in both Mark and Luke is to be acknowledged.  However, dealing with those parallel passages was the thrust of my posting.  Indeed, in the opening line of my second paragraph concerning Matthew 24:4-31, I did make the statement, "What then do we find in our Lord's answer as presented in Matthew 24:4-31.  To me, it is worthy of note that throughout this passage . . . ."

 

Second, my acknowledgement of fault -- In presenting my first posting concerning Matthew 24;1-21, I did recognize that there was a parallel passage in Mark 13; and I did take it into some small amount of consideration (since a significant amount of consideration thereto was not my primary purpose).  However, I did not at all recognize that there was a parallel passage in Luke 21.  This was a fault on my part, and I do acknowledge it as such.  In a future posting (as time will permit), I do intend to remedy this fault on my part.

In Topic: Matthew 24

22 November 2014 - 01:49 PM

 

I disagree. Compare this section of verses - [Luke 19:39-44] 

With this - [Matthew 24:2]

 

In my opinion describing, in Matthew 24, the following way - [Matthew 24:15-21]

Sounds like the same situation to me.

   And it is the same time in each book.
 
I would like to also add, in support of this statement - [Luke 21:20-24]

 

Brother Pittman,

 

When you presented your posting last night, I did not have the time to respond thereto.  It was my intent to deliver a response some time today as time might permit.  Since that time, you have edited your posting to add the passage from Luke 21:20-24 and Brother "Covenanter" has also presented his posting wherein he also brought forward the teaching of Luke 21:20-22.  This causes a small difficulty for me.  Do I now respond as I originally intended to your posting as it was originally delivered, without a consideration of your edited addition and of Brother "Covenanter's" posting; or do I attempt to respond unto all of these as a single unit?  First, I will acknowledge that there is a form of "dove-tail" between the passages that you originally included in your posting and Luke 21:20-24 (as added by you and presented by Brother "Covenanter.")  However, I do indeed intend in this posting to present my initial thoughts of response to your posting as it originally was presented (without a consideration of Luke 21:20-24).  On the other hand, I also do intend to provide a more thorough response concerning Luke 21:20-24 and its relationship to Matthew 24:1-31.  Also in this posting I intend to make some small parenthetical references to your addition and Brother "Covenanter's" presentation of Luke 21:20-24, which I shall present in a different color scheme for the purpose of recognition.  I pray that this method of presentation will be acceptable and understandable.

__________________________________________________

 

It appears from your posting that you would see an equivalency between the following three passages -- Luke 19:39-44; Matthew 24:2; and Matthew 24:15-21.  Even so, I wish to present some thoughts concerning the teaching of these passage and concerning the relationship of these passages to one another, wherein they do and wherein they do not present a direct connection to each other.

 

Luke 19:39-44 -- "And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

 

Luke 19:41-44 presents our Lord's grief over the city of Jerusalem, as per verse 41 -- "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it."  Then in verses 42-44 our Lord delivered a pronouncement of judgement upon that city.  Throughout this pronouncement our Lord employed the third person, singular pronouns "thee," "thou," "thy," and "thine" a significant number of times.  Grammatically, the antecedent for these pronouns is found in the phrase "the city" as presented in verse 41.  As such, our Lord spoke unto and concerning the city of Jerusalem as a singular, personified individual.  What about the inhabitants of the city?  These our Lord referenced in verse 44 as the children of the city within "her."  (Note: I here employed the feminine pronoun "her" since that is the gender by which we usually personify a city.  I do recognize that our Lord Jesus Christ did not directly specify a gender in His personification.)   So then, what is involved in our Lord's prophetic ("For the days shall come upon thee . . .") pronouncement of judgment upon the city of Jerusalem?

 

1.  The enemies of Jerusalem shall surround the city with a military siege, as per verse 43.

2.  The enemies of Jerusalem shall conquer the city and tear it down to the ground, as per the opening line of verse 44.

3.  The enemies of Jerusalem shall lay the inhabitants of the city down to the ground with death, as per the second line of verse 44.

4.  The enemies of Jerusalem shall so tear down the city that no two stones of the city will remain one upon the other, as per the third line of verse 44.

 

 

Matthew 24:2 -- "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

 

In Matthew 24:1 it is recorded that one of Jesus' disciples directed His gaze upon the physical wonderment of the Temple buildings.  Verse 2 records our Lord's response.  It is worthy of note that our Lord does not at all focus upon the physical wonderment of the Temple buildings, but rather upon the coming destruction of those very Temple buildings.  Specifically, our Lord prophetically proclaims the judgment that the Temple buildings would experience such destruction that no two stones of the Temple buildings would remain one upon the other.  

 

What then are the connections and differences between Luke 19:33-44 & Matthew 24:2.  First, the difference -- Luke 19:33-44 only speaks specifically concerning the city of Jerusalem, not concerning the Temple in Jerusalem; whereas Matthew 24:2 only speaks specifically concerning the Temple in Jerusalem, not concerning the city of Jerusalem.  However, it is to be acknowledge that in speaking concerning the city of Jerusalem, the statements of Luke 19:33-44 by definition must also include the Temple in the city of Jerusalem.  On the other hand, the connection -- Both passages indicate that the coming destruction of judgment will cause no two stones to remain standing one upon the other.  As such, I am compelled to acknowledge that these two passages are indeed speaking concerning the same event of judgment upon Jerusalem and the Temple therein.  (Thus far, I believe that we would be in agreement.)

 

 

Matthew 24:15-21 -- "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

Throughout this passage we find one reference to the Temple in Jerusalem, through the phrase "in the holy place" as employed in verse 15.  Herein there is no reference to the destruction of that Temple, and no statement to indicate that no two stones would be remaining one upon the other.  Rather, there is a reference to some "abomination of desolation" that will "stand in the holy place" (probably, the Holy of Holies) within the Temple.  As such, this reference implies the necessity for the Temple itself to be standing (not destroyed) in order for this event to occur.  (Now, one might contend that the destruction of the Temple buildings will occur immediately after this event.  However, the actual statements of Matthew 24:15-21 make no direct statement concerning this.)  In addition, although Matthew 24:16-21 does instruct the inhabitants in the land of Judaea at that time to flee unto the mountains, there is no direct reference at all in this passage to the city of Jerusalem itself or to that cities destruction.  As such, a direct connection between Matthew 24:15-21 and Matthew 24:2/Luke 19:41-44 is lacking in the direct statements that they actually present.  

 

(Now, here is the point at which I must acknowledge the addition of Luke 21:20-24 into the discussion.  Indeed, I am compelled to acknowledge a direct connection between Luke 21:20-24 and Luke 19:41-44/Matthew 24:2.  Furthermore, I am compelled to acknowledge that Luke 21:5-ff stands as a parallel passage to Matthew 24:1-ff.  Thus I can understand that manner by which you have made the connection between Matthew 24:15-21 and Luke 19:41-44/Matthew 24:2, that is -- through their connection to Luke 21:20-24.)

In Topic: Matthew 24

21 November 2014 - 08:35 PM

 

I have a question here-

 

Just who is Jesus Christ, the ever living Son of God Almighty, God in the flesh, talking to in Matthew 24?

His disciples? The Jews? The Lost Tribes? Elvis? Us?

 

Who?

 

 

Concerning the original post --

 

In the direct circumstance of the immediate context and conversation as recorded in this passage, our Lord Jesus Christ was speaking privately to His disciples.  This is in accord with the statement of Matthew 24:3-4a -- "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  And Jesus answered and said unto them . . . ."  With a further consideration of the parallel passage in Mark 13, we find that our Lord Jesus Christ was actually only speaking privately to four specifically named disciples.  This is in accord with the statement of Mark 13:3-5a -- "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?  And Jesus answering them began to say . . . ."

________________________________________________

 

Concerning our Lord's answer as it proceeded from Matthew 24:1-31 --

 

In Matthew 24:2 our Lord Jesus Christ spoke a prophetic utterance concerning the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem -- "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things?  Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."  In response to this prophetic utterance, some of the disciples approached the Lord privately and presented two questions unto Him concerning the events of the future.  Thus we read in Matthew 24:3, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"  Now, the grammatical structure of these two questions does indicate that these are two grammatically separate questions.  With the first question, the disciples were asking for an indication of the specific timing when the "these things" that the Lord had just pronounced concerning the destruction of the Temple might occur.  With the second question, the disciples added a question concerning the signs by which they might discern the Lord's coming and "the end of the world."  Grammatically, by the fact that the employed the singular word "sign" to encompass both the Lord's coming and "the end of the world," it would appear that they considered these two elements of the future to be directed connected unto one another.  On the other hand, although their questions were presented as two distinct questions in grammatical structure, it is uncertain how closely they may have connected the events of these two questions in their thinking.  It is possible that the disciples directly connected the event of the Temple's destruction in the future with the event of the Lord's return and "the end of the world."  It is also possible that they simply took up the occasion of the Lord's prophetic utterance to ask concerning a matter of the future that was much more pressing upon their minds (since the Lord was already engaging in prophetic utterances).

 

What then do we find in our Lord's answer as presented in Matthew 24:4-31.  To me, it is worthy of note that throughout this passage our Lord's does not provide even a single element of information in answer to the disciples' first question concerning the timing for the destruction of the Temple.  Rather, our Lord focuses His entire answer on their second question concerning the sign of His coming and "of the end of the world."  In verses 4-5 our Lord immediately focuses upon the matter of His coming by warning His disciples not to be deceived by the declarations of false Christ's.  In verse 6 our Lord then speaks concerning the matter of the end, saying, "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."  Following this, in verses 7-14 our Lord presents an entire list of events and activities that would occur before the end would come and that would lead to the end.  Indeed, our Lord concluded this portion of His answer concludes with verses 13-14, saying, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

 

In the flow of this context, the relative adverb "when," with which Matthew 24:15 begins, signals the turning point in our Lord's answer concerning the sign of His coming and "of the end of the world."  From this point the Lord will be providing a specific answer to that question.  Indeed, again in verses 23-26 our Lord warns concerning the claims of false Christs.  Then in verses 27-31 (as a direct contrast to the false claims of the false Christs) our Lord prophetically presents the actual signs of His coming, saying, "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

Some thoughts for consideration.

In Topic: Shepherding The Flock - Audio Sermon - Wisdom Crieth Without (Part 2 Of 4)

21 November 2014 - 10:20 AM

Indeed, if we believers do not learn the Biblical process of repentance for our own daily walk, we will continually be walking after our sinful flesh, never returning unto a walk after the Holy Spirit.  Since we commit sin regularly (even daily, yea even multiple times per day, which is not at all to be justified simply because it is so regular, and since everyone else is doing it also), the Biblical process of repentance for the believer's daily walk is actually a spiritual basic for the Christian life (just like daily Bible study and meditation, a constant prayer life, walking by faith, etc.).  It is a spiritual shame (and to our spiritual downfall) that we do not possess a better understanding and grasp of this Biblical truth and spiritual reality.

 

In preaching and teaching, I have been known to pose the following case --

 

1.  How many of you have committed a sin of any kind at least once each day this past week?

 

2.  When you committed that sin, did it break you fellowship with God your heavenly Father and with Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior, so that you ceased to walk in the light of their fellowship and began to walk in the darkness of your sinful flesh?  Indeed, you did; for God's Word declares this to be so.  Indeed, this is true no matter what the sin may have been.

 

3.  What is the only way to deal with that sin in order that you might be forgiven and cleansed by God and in order that you might be restored unto fellowship with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?  According to God's Holy Word, the only way is through broken-hearted repentance of that sin.

 

4.  Did you come to Biblical repentance of those sins that you committed each of the days over this past week?  If you did not, then you are not yet forgiven, not yet cleansed, and not yet in a right fellowship with God your heavenly Father and with Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior.  On the other hand, if you did, then at the very moment of your repentance, by the abundant grace and mercy of God, you were immediately forgiven, immediately cleansed, and immediately restored to fellowship.

 

Indeed, I would proclaim with great force -- We believers will NEVER experience a Biblical, Holy Spirit revival until we learn the Biblical process of repentance for our daily walk!!!

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