Remember NN, I came into this argument late. Nowhere have I (nor anyone else in this thread) stated that keeping the law was necessary nor that works were necessary.
However it is Scriptural true that prior to the pouring out of the Spirit, any and all true faith was demonstrated by works as opposed to our time in which the Spirit's regeneration is the demonstration of faith in the Gospel.
The issue also isn't your last statement about stumbling, the issue is that noone in the OT had any idea what you are talking about or the OT would clearly state that somewhere. You are reading hindsight and thinking the idea could be commonly known when it was in fact completely unknown (a mystery). No stumbling, just unknown. Believing God when He showed Himself to man was the only thing known at the time.
The Bible is the one that says it; I'm just repeating what the Bible says...
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Romans 9:31-3331 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Come on folks, think for yourselves about it and put away the simplistic fairy tales. Salvation as we know it since Pentecost didn't even exist in the OT. Those saints had to stay faithful until death. NOT necessarily workful, but FAITHful.
That IS work-based.
Oh and yes, during the tribulation, it will be the same way. There will be no Spirit regeneration, no born again, no saved (as we know it). Those saints will once again have to keep themselves until the day of redemption at death but they too will have the helps of real signs, real visions, real miracles. Not the emotional charismatic BUNK we claim as signs and miracles during our time.
That's works-based too.
I know allot to think about when you are used to the whole "it has always been believing in Jesus" nonsense nowhere in the context in God's Word. A few misinterpreted verses taken out of context and shouted over and over and over again by lazy preachers who don't want to really look into it doesn't make true Bible doctrine and history.
I humbly suggest that you go back and read all of my entries in this thread. All that I have consistently said is...
- that they were saved by grace through faith
- they believed God, and it was accounted unto them for righteousness
The closest that I came to what you are saying that I'm advocating is...
Those Old Testament saints who believed God were only taken to heaven after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; therefore, their righteousness (and salvation) is directly tied to the gospel.
...and I stand by that statement.
Ok brother, I do understand your stand on this. I bought it too for 25 years because it really doesn't matter to us now as long as we have been convicted by the Spirit when hearing the Gospel and believed.
It is the easy way and the lazy way to explain when questions come and I will admit not worth looking into much when sharing the Gospel. You folks win.
- AVBibleBeliever likes this